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My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand...

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  • #31
    Connecting...to my backhand drive, continental grip style.

    Originally posted by bottle View Post
    ...I'm afraid to say a single word for fear of ruining your new game by overloading it with old thought.

    How did the match go today (Saturday)?
    Thanks again bottle...aka John Escher. Author of multiple books! Congratulations! Much success to you...on your terms. Whatever it means to you...it's your dream! The danger is not from your input...it is the danger of my waking up. It's only my dream and nothing that you can say can put an end to it. You will only provoke more hallucinations...with your positive energy and your thoughtful wisdom. I am grateful for any occasion that you see fit...to connect with me. To engage with me.

    The match was canceled due to my friends state of health. He called shortly before saying that he was not feeling up to it...a bit weak from a bout of fever earlier in the month. I can't wait for him to get back to full strength.

    But oh well...time waits for no man and neither do I. I had two hours of hitting lessons with a couple of big strong, 35ish Swedish guys that thought they were hitting big forehands. Both have the same problem...suffering from the same thing that a lot of tennis players are these days. Club players trying to play like the professionals and trying to hit too hard with too much topspin. Pared down their backswings a bit and both were glowing about their new found concept of...control. I just love it when that happens. When they handed over the cash...it felt perfect.

    For me though...it is all about me. Above my need to improve my students game lurking below the surface is my selfish desire to hit drive backhands with the continental grip. This two hour session was two fold. I am being dreadfully honest here. To get my students under control in order that I might hit more backhands. Like any good business deal it went really, really well...it went both ways. They were happy which makes me happy. Isn't life/love grand?

    And the backhand...more feelings. More input. Hogan said that every time he hit a golf ball it sent him a message...from the club face up the shaft all the way through the conduits of his body parts...to his heart. I may be paraphrasing here a bit. Essentially two hours of cross court backhands...perfect! I have to be careful here...all of my parts are 58 years old even though they may feel 31 in my dream. It's doubly important to not blow a cog now.

    The thought of the day was...allow the left hand to come down the track that the line of the feet make and allow the wrist to do its magic and slam the door at the end of the chain. Simple backswing makes it all possible. That was my lesson for the day...as I was teaching my students I learned my own lesson.
    Last edited by don_budge; 01-06-2013, 06:08 AM.
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    • #32
      They Handed over the Cash!

      Wonderful!

      They handed over the cash! You must be really fluent in Swedish is all that I can say. My Swedish girlfriend, Malin, never handed over the cash. But she was eager to take it from other people, and that's why she married such a big fat rich bastard from Georgia Tech in the first place.

      I'll tell you an awful story. (Like the cabinet members in the movie LINCOLN you have permission now to groan.) I may even have told the story in this forum before but I'll tell it differently this time.

      In my first USTA match, some guy appeared in Winchester, Virginia from a couple of states over. I may not have known much yet about interpreting pre-match warmups in tennis, but it became very clear to me that he was dying from cancer.

      He was in his fifties-- in his young fifties, I would guess. He seemed young and vigorous. He was president of the biggest tennis organization in his state. His son was tour-level. He was a school teacher. And maybe the nicest tennis player I've ever met (take it either way).

      And he talked a lot, as he took me apart-- one reason I adore seniors tennis-- a place where people are relaxed enough to impart wisdom and wit if they feel like it. He explained that he'd recently shortened his strokes which he saw as an imperative of getting old.

      Yes, but the imperative was accelerated in his case.

      So the lesson was not how to deal with drop-shots (for he drop-shotted every one of my serves whether I was to win the point or not), but graceful modification of one's strokes as one gets older.

      And when he got bored, sometime in the middle of the second set, he stopped
      hitting soft shots and unleashed one howitzer-- full, heavy topspin that landed deep and bounced to the sky and was nowhere anywhere near me.

      Well, you know, there was an accompanying Azarenka-like shriek and it was just for that one shot and you knew it had nothing to do with zen or relaxing one's muscles and he was dead within a year. I told you it was an awful story.

      I like your present emphasis on getting the feet in ideal position. You always convey that same emphasis right out of golf, but it has special meaning, it seems to me, when it comes to continental drives.

      Of course you already were partial to slice so probably were already using continental grip for a majority of backhands so there wasn't really that much of a departure for you other than a shorter backswing on that side. But forehand continental drive-- there was the departure! And now the upcoming backhand continental drive, the second big departure!

      When I tried to figure it out (backhand continental drive), I was always obsessed with when and how the arm ought to straighten and how much it ought to roll and what did John McEnroe mean when he criticized Greg Rusedski for not keeping his elbow in?

      On my own, I got the part down you recently expressed about the forward hips turn leveling off the shoulders but the rest of it threw me for a loop.

      My present film-watching says yes, another Ben Hogan type swing as on the forehand, but with this difference:

      On backhand, John McEnroe finishes straightening his arm (it wasn't that bent anyway) from the simultaneous hips rotation and pushing of them out. When we watch the Hogan video we see the speed arm straightening all the way down in similar fashion.

      But when we watch the John McEnroe forehand in video, slowing it down, stopping it, etc., we see that his arm has gotten straight before any of the forward swing.

      So John McEnroe's backhand is the howitzer. His forehand is like a normal person's one-hand backhand, a boxer's jab compared to his sockdolager (with all such talk coming from "Virginia Wade's Class," my favorite VCR video of all time.)
      Last edited by bottle; 01-06-2013, 08:03 AM.

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      • #33
        Perhaps it is Best...

        ...to let the John McEnroe game speak for itself. Here are three different perspectives through the years.

        When he was young, in the last all wooden racquet tennis final at Wimbledon in 1981 against Björn Borg...



        At the height of his powers when the game transitioned to mid-sized graphite racquets at the US Open in 1984 against Ivan Lendl...although Lendl may have been using a nearly standard sized racquet in that one. Does anyone else wonder how much of an advantage that may have been?



        Here is McEnroe at the height of his powers. Listen to Tony Trabert, Pat Summerall and John Newcombe describe the play in this spellbinding match. John McEnroe at the height of his mastery of the craft and Ivan Lendl nearly at his. McEnroe prevails. Convincingly. Two gargantuan Titans in the Game of Tennis with their own interpretation as to how it should be played. Each trying to the best of their ability to assert their way upon the other. Artists? Scientists? Poets? Shamans? You be the judge. I will simply call them... "Metaphysical Engineers".

        Here is John McEnroe well past his prime against a younger Pete Sampras. Even though the powers are waning...they are still formidable. Very interesting...don't you think so, stroke...aka Jon?



        Coming next...my "Big Conundrum". Which I hope to make yours.

        If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
        Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
        Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
        And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
        Last edited by don_budge; 01-09-2013, 01:00 AM.
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        • #34
          The John McEnroe backhand...thoughts continued.



          If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
          If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
          If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
          And treat those two impostors just the same;

          I think that I woke up and watched this the other day...at least I don't think that I was dreaming. I may have been. This being one of the most beautiful tennis matches that I ever saw in my life. Tennis itself was hanging in the balance...and these two spirits were out there beyond it all...they were beyond tennis. Björn Borg and John McEnroe...dueling on center court in the final all wooden tennis racquet final...ever. Good night...she said. Sleep well.

          Every conceivable shot played from every conceivable angle and modern tennis has the nerve to trumpet itself in the manner that it does. These guys were heroes...one playing his beloved Donnays and the other the Dunlop Maxply. It was so fitting...so connected. Borg the Ice Viking and McEnroe the Volcanic American. The two masks of drama playing their respective parts so convincingly.

          Here is the McEnroe backhand in its finest hour. Parry, thrust...stab. In some sequences he plays alternating topspin and underspin. What kind of control does that spell? What does that say about his character? Everyone wants to talk about his misbehavior...he never killed anyone. He never even knocked over a party store. Get a life...he had the nerve to tell everyone where to get off. He doesn't need my approval...but I give it to him anyways. The tennis establishment probably had it coming to them. Fuddy duddies. Stiff shirts. Like Scarface in that infamous restaurant scene...he told them off. "Take a look at the bad guy...you never gonna see a bad guy like this again." We haven't seen the likes of him since.

          On this day his behavior was pretty darn good. Not perfect...but he gets applauded for not causing a ruckus...a number of times. And he was brilliant. Everyone else laid down for Borg, but not Johnny. He was up for the task and took the bull by the horns and finally applied the loving sword...for the match point and the title.



          But the backhand...yes, the backhand. Continental grip...possibly a couple of millimeters adjusted according to Stotty. Ok...let us assume so. But for him to alternate a whole sequence of shots between top and under spin is really saying it all. So that is the measuring stick. I got to the club an hour early and hit against the wall. Before I went I reviewed every frame of video on the drive backhands in the archive and I read my comments. I read the comments that bottle has offered. I was ready to go to work...my objective was to get the alternating sequence of topspin and underspin working. It worked...with some hard work. Topspin then underspin...over and over and over and over...like a dream.

          Then I took it a step further and hit forehand then topspin backhand...then back to the forehand and then underspin backhand. Repeat...over and over. One bounce...not missing. Focus on the backswing. Focus on the "cheating" ready position. Hand extending to the sidewall on the forehand. Two hours of babysitting lessons and then a chance to hit with my best juniors. One hour of everything I had...everything that I could muster. Nothing but continental swings. It's working. It's not easy. It's a radical grip change. But I did my homework and I understand it. Never let the other guy outwork you.

          Playing the backhand with a supinated wrist is a radical departure. The sensation of the wrist action is truly unique...when it unfurls without any inducement whatsoever and the racquet head is accelerating through the path of the ball and it is staying on its edge the whole way. One might say "slinging". Something has to be right about this stroke. Racquet head drops below the hand...one of several keys.
          Last edited by don_budge; 01-10-2013, 12:36 PM.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by don_budge View Post
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nECFscrEXfI

            Playing the backhand with a supinated wrist is a radical departure. The sensation of the wrist action is truly unique...when it unfurls without any inducement whatsoever and the racquet head is accelerating through the path of the ball and it is staying on its edge the whole way. Something has to be right about this stroke. Racquet head drops below the hand...one of several keys.
            This is the interesting clip for me.



            It's a tough one for Mac this shot. He gets over the ball but it's a struggle. The racket face seems to remain open longer during the backswing AND looks still to be quite open as he goes in to the forward swing. He always gets the racket on edge in good time for the strike, though...that's essential in fast-paced tennis.

            There's a beautiful clip in the archive of Don Budge hitting a backhand.



            Budge leaves the closing of the racket face incredibly late. He gets his racket face on edge just at the last split second. Not sure any player could get away with such a late closure of the racket face these days.

            He keeps his body in the shot really, really well though...especially in this clip. I absolutely love this shot.

            Stotty

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            • #36
              Wrist Action "Unfurls!"

              That ought to silence the critics.

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              • #37
                Off the Wall...Michael Jackson or Torben Ulrich

                Training against the wall...used a 265 gram racquet and the "green" ball to slow the action down. Much as if I was training a beginner.

                Mirror, mirror on the wall. Every so often I go in front of the mirror and go through the swing to remind myself of all the minutia of details.
                Last edited by don_budge; 01-11-2013, 01:15 AM.
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                • #38
                  The Geezers' Surprise

                  The geezers awaiting my return to their group think my backhands ("Stay away from his backhand!") are pretty good.

                  So won't they be surprised when I unfurl my new backhand. Will it be "barred" like the old one? More important, will it be as good as the old one, or better, or promising of better?

                  The word "barred" came to me through owls and Geoffrey Williams, the man with the Patton tank of a backhand, barred in his case though not barred from competition.

                  And a barre as I understand it is the bar around the perimeter of a dance studio where everything has to do with balance.

                  As I watch Steve Navarro's and Gary Player's video of Ben Hogan's golf swing, I have to say that Hogan's left arm is barred.

                  So that-- in the abstraction of my office-- is my current backhand plan if for no other reason than that I wish to eliminate one variable (arm straightening all the way to ball).

                  Continental forehand: a small bit of arm straightening as racket approaches ball.

                  Continental backhand: Arm barred but rolling from a foot away from the ball with wrist also unfurling to help keep elbow in (and racket on edge as Steve just suggested about his own continental backhand).

                  John "Huh?" McEnroe seldom gives much clue as to his own game except in what he says with his racket, but once criticized Greg Rusedski for not keeping his elbow in.

                  Keeping elbow in reduces scope of the shot and brings effective contact point BACK. I'm hoping for my new backhand in this way to be more economical than the old one.
                  Last edited by bottle; 01-11-2013, 01:59 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Thanks John...

                    Originally posted by bottle View Post
                    So won't they be surprised when I unfurl my new backhand. Will it be "barred" like the old one? More important, will it be as good as the old one, or better, or promising of better?

                    Keeping elbow in reduces scope of the shot and brings effective contact point BACK. I'm hoping for my new backhand in this way to be more economical than the old one.
                    Thanks for the cue! Thanks for the clue! Keeping the elbow in is an act of faith and letting it out is defensive...which is fine for the slice. But in order for the structure to swing correctly from the fulcrum...the elbow must be in! Great comments...great attitude!
                    don_budge
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                    • #40
                      It's a big subject, isn't it, with more to it than meets the eye, and very little available in the way of helpful information from anybody, past or present. Face it, once the tennis establishment decided that continental grip was useless, they placed their attention elsewhere, which meant that best technical information about anything in tennis is elsewhere, too.

                      But what does anybody know about a subject they already rejected on the basis of what other people think? Doing experiments on their own is an entirely different proposition. In that case, someone's personal judgment is "earned," but even then their conclusions may be wrong. As in a dance class, say, where the student decides: "This is just too difficult. I can't make it work." But then, as our dance instructor says, you come around to the same step or series of steps a couple of months or years later and everything settles into place-- because of the work you did before.

                      Me, I'm following an idea of yours-- to keep racket on edge to organize the various elements. And I'm interested in the idea of reducing scope, i.e., of using a smooth and even but sharper arc just before hitting the ball, let's say in the space of about one foot. A tall person like me, but maybe other persons, too, may have had lifelong trouble in getting sufficiently around on a fast oncoming or pop loaded ball.

                      Well, rolling the arm, i.e., keeping the elbow in might help, but not help enough. What, though, if one sums or adds on at same time some unfurling of the wrist, backhand ping-pong style (as Stroke suggested). Just a small amount of straightening wrist from supinated or "curled" beginning brings the racket tip around like crazy. But has racket closed too much during these simultaneous maneuvers?

                      If so, a better contact point needs to be discovered, a bit more in advance of the body, to open up the racket. One element (roll) is closing the racket. A second element (movement of elbow or whole arm toward the net-- all that many people trying to hit a one-hander ever try) is opening the racket. A third element (wrist slightly hinging toward straightness) isn't affecting pitch one way or the other.

                      Keeping racket head on edge, as an imperative, can make it all work-- intellectually-- but it's got to feel great and gel under pressure as a single, organic move, and as something that one can mime repeatedly and correctly and perfectly with one's hand not holding a racket. Acute crosscourts should be exceptionally good.
                      Last edited by bottle; 01-14-2013, 08:37 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Synchronicity...the sum of the parts.

                        I think that you have picked up on the sensation that I mentioned and this is a terribly interesting sensation. It sort of reminds me of my golf swing when I am swinging it good. It is as if the head of the golf club goes speeding by me and leaving me behind somehow...that is how fast this swing happens at the critical juncture. The timing must be perfect as well as the position of your body in relationship to the ball...and this is where the straight arm is critical as well. It insures that the strings return to the ball. Yeah...it's a big subject alright.

                        Originally posted by bottle View Post
                        Well, rolling the arm, i.e., keeping the elbow in might help, but not help enough. What, though, if one sums or adds on at same time some unfurling of the wrist, backhand ping-pong style (as Stroke suggested). Just a small amount of straightening wrist from supinated or "curled" beginning brings the racket tip around like crazy. But has racket closed too much during these simultaneous maneuvers?
                        I couldn't agree with you more on all that you said...and I find it fascinating too that the continental grip found it's way so deeply buried in obscurity. I talked with my father tonight about the continental grip and his memories of playing with it which gave us something somewhat interesting to talk about.

                        But this can work. The thing is though, is that the timing is so crucial...you will notice that in virtually every shot that McEnroe drives with his backhand he has perfect position on the ball. He makes the three lines in his get in position position...the feet, the shoulder (and hips) and his racquet. His shoulder is poised on the ball every time he initiates his move on the ball. And this is the hard part. Getting in that perfect position. Once that is accomplished the rest is ready to unfurl. I can manage it against the wall now.

                        But now you are talking about the critical point at which to meet the ball in relation to your body as only one point in time in space is perfect for this stroke. You have to pick up on that point early as the ball is screaming across the net from the other side of the court as I found out on Friday when the newly turned 35 year old came back seeking revenge for my surprise attack on him. But I was tired too, so I was batting with two strikes on me the whole time. Next Friday we shall see if we can get back on our toes and go at him again.

                        Best to keep it simple...turn with the racquet back, pick up that point of contact quickly...then get your ass in position to unfurl the whole shebang. Undoubtably it is a long process which is why it was probably abandoned in the first place. Easier to teach a two hander and be done with it.
                        Last edited by don_budge; 01-14-2013, 11:57 AM.
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                        • #42
                          One handed backhands

                          Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                          Easier to teach a two hander and be done with it.
                          You've touched upon the crux of the matter yourself. The two hander is a short cut to a decent backhand and coaches reach for it straight immediately. Coaching a one hander takes a lot longer and rival coaches will undermine you for trying it....poach your players by guaranteeing parents a better results quickly.

                          The one hander is all but dead...
                          Stotty

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                          • #43
                            Two-Handers Make The Ball Bore

                            In continental, one-hand backhand, will be excited tomorrow to:

                            Make sure that big knuckle is almost (but not quite over) to eastern forehand slat.

                            Curl wrist gradually and set racket slightly out from body to spot where curling has placed racket on edge.

                            The hips just did their thing-- rotated forward while pressing toward the net to finish straightening arm and set racket head in a good place.

                            Okay, that's hips. Now what is arm going to do and all at once?

                            1) Roll
                            2) Straighten at wrist
                            3) Move elbow in middle of the barred arm on a diagonal to outside and forward to create an inside out swing.

                            What remains? The followthrough. What about hitting the ball? Did you forget to do that?

                            One hits ball with transition to one's followthrough. The followthrough will be left to right for a right-hander.

                            Back needs to be braced against the forward/sideways racket sling to produce acceleration precisely on the ball.

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                            • #44
                              Lance Arm Stroke

                              The goal is a solid, high-percentage stroke that isn't a lie. In these John McEnroe gripped groundies, one can look for a breakthrough on either side and then apply it to the other.

                              For me, a breakthrough occurred while hitting forehands against a wall, using two bounces to Steve Navarro's one.

                              In a previous incarnation discussed through email with Jim McLennan at Tennis One website, Jim termed my description "the McEnroe slap shot."

                              By now however I much prefer Steve's analogy to speed arm performance in a Ben Hogan golf swing since the racket won't stub backward against ice. But comparison does not stop there. I see the McEnroe forehand as the abbreviated version of Tom Okker flat variation (see page 51 top photographic panel in MASTERING YOUR TENNIS STROKES). And as the abbreviated version of the forehand advocated by Mercer Beasley on pages 21-22 of HOW TO PLAY TENNIS, 1937 edition, whether the golfer/tennis player Ellsworth Vines was at that time or before or later using eastern, or, modified continental grip like McEnroe.

                              To hit a modified McEnroe forehand, you (I mean I) don't come up on legs as much and soon as he. But you do keep backswing in so close that grazing your body would be all right. The real model is Ben Hogan, and more specifically, Hogan's forward turn of his hips and his assertion that there are only two parts to forward stroke-- hips and all the rest.

                              So, the racket is back and up and even concealed a bit behind oneself due to extreme shoulders turn. Whether the right-hander uses a traditional hitting step or brings left leg over somewhat during the actual stroke, hips will start the swing.

                              Blended sequence all on the downswing is previously straight wrist laying back, bent arm straightening, wrist unfurling; then arm swings inside out and across with a slight roll to reduce scope and mildly sweep the racket face up over the ball.

                              On backhand side, this mild, rolling sweep of the arm can be preserved. A new model here is Arthur Ashe, who, like McEnroe, curled or supinated his wrist. And Ashe used two verb phrases to describe the easy backhand drive he had in mind: "sling the racket at the ball" and "turn the corner in the stroke."

                              Backswing again is in close. Racket in fact goes farther around than pointing on a perpendicular at the rear fence. This prepares delivery of energy, including from the hips, to the outside.

                              Sequence: Forward rotation of hips straightens residue in arm and starts moving the butt cap, wrist unfurls to become straight, arm continues to outside and across with a slight roll same as in forehand.
                              Last edited by bottle; 01-17-2013, 02:37 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Add Duct Tape and One Dollop of Retraction Stew

                                As Don Brosseau has correctly suggested, scapular retraction could be scapular adduction in a one-handed backhand.

                                The Latin root of "adduction" means to lead, as in "to lead toward the ball." Duct work leads from a heat pump to different vents in a house. More heat comes out of some vent if one puts duct tape over leaks in the duct work.

                                In a gesture toward personal sanity, I term the scapular action in a one-hander as "retraction" even though it can lead the racket butt around toward the ball.

                                And as Martina Navratilova has correctly suggested, removing sequence where simultaneity will do just as well makes eminent good sense by increasing the chance that someone's timing shall be impeccable.

                                So I have a question. Does scapular retraction always have to be fast? If not, could one incorporate it, along with forward hips turn, as something protracted (and unconscious) from end of backswing through contact?

                                I see this idea as related to erect posture and raising of the rib cage and extension of the legs to put more body pressure on the ball.

                                Raising the rib cage? Yes, as a wedge driving shoulder blades closer to one another.

                                And what about extreme lowness of the racket tip? How can one achieve that? 1) from curled wrist, 2) by bending legs more, 3) by leveling shoulders from the hips rotating and going out beneath them, 4) by pressing down with arm and holding it back even as scapular retraction starts the inside out swing which will spell success.

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