Mcenroe's serve in 1977

[gsheiner]

I happened to come across this clip of Mcenroe playing Connors, at Wimbledon, in 1977. What struck me was that his serve, at this point in his career, was different from the famous Mcenroe serve that seemed to have developed by 1979.

Mcenroe's serve 1977

Here, he doesn't have the wide based setup that he later developed.

I wonder how he came to change his serve after already achieving great success as a youngster in 1977.

[stotty]

Fascinating

I happened to come across this clip of Mcenroe playing Connors, at Wimbledon, in 1977. What struck me was that his serve, at this point in his career, was different from the famous Mcenroe serve that seemed to have developed by 1979.

Mcenroe's serve 1977

Here, he doesn't have the wide based setup that he later developed.

I wonder how he came to change his serve after already achieving great success as a youngster in 1977.

What a wonderful clip. You can see the ball quite clearly unlike many tennis clips around of that era.

I had no idea Mac's stance was once that narrow. I remember his swing did morph a little during his career....but in the 1977 clip it was clearly far different to what it was later to become.

As his swing became bigger in it's wind up, I guess it would have made sense to widen the stance... "associated techniques" I think Doug Eng calls it.

Fascinating. I wonder if anyone on the forum can shed any light on the coaching methodology behind the matter.

[johnyandell]

Someone asked him, after the change, John, what happened to your stance, and his answer was: "huh?"

The intuition of great players trumps coaching one more time.

[don_budge]

Jimmy Connors vs. John McEnroe Wimbledon semi-finals 1977

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kOzFW1Nnc&playnext=1&list=PLDE121795B72B75D0

A little more of the action of yesteryear...two American Bad Boys. Just getting to know each other. French commentators.

McEnroe in Fila with the trusty Wilson ProStaff. Connors and his Wilson T2000. I would love to see the modern day Gladiators try and flip that piece of work. The beginning of the end of classic tennis.

McEnroe service motion...shades of things to come. Artists evolve. Machines need to be engineered.

[stotty]

Self-development

Someone asked him, after the change, John, what happened to your stance, and his answer was: "huh?"

The intuition of great players trumps coaching one more time.

Well his serve certainly got better after that 1977 clip. It became more powerful and developed more swerve. There's a lot to be said for relying on self-development...especially when you're on the gifted side...but if you're like I was...you need all the outside help you can get.

[tennis_chiro]

Better perhaps, but why?

Well his serve certainly got better after that 1977 clip. It became more powerful and developed more swerve. There's a lot to be said for relying on self-development...especially when you're on the gifted side...but if you're like I was...you need all the outside help you can get.

Stotty, you and I would both say that the old motion looks almost "Stichian" and very classical. His service game became more "effective" as he got a little older, but it's not necessarily because of this change he made to his service motion. He got stronger and served bigger. There is no question his serve is harder to read out of his later sideways windup and toss. But for one of the best, if not the best, pair of hands in the game in the last 40 years, he double-faulted much more than some of the great servers on his day (Newcombe, etc).

What is worse, Mac could get away with the screwy windup and still be effective; most kids that tried to emulate it ended up hitting a lot more double faults than he did.

By the way, at this time in Mac's career, his primary coach was Antonio Palafox at Cove Tennis in Glen Cove, NY who had first worked with him at the Port Washington Tennis Academy. Given a choice, players in the East almost always practiced on clay or har-tru, unless they were getting ready for a hard court event.

I played an exhibition with Mac and Mary Carillo and Carole Graebner a couple of weeks after this match while I was Director of Tennis at the Concord. A couple of months later he was at Stanford and some changes may have taken place when he started to play exclusively on hard courts on the west coast.

don

[gsheiner]

Perhaps Mac struggled with the wide serve to the forehand in the deuce court and played around with his stance?

Legend has it that Neale Fraser had a great lefty serve. There's a great video of the 1960 Wimbledon final on youtube, and Fraser seems to have a completely opposite setup as compared to Mcenroe as he serves with an open setup with his feet. Yet he seemed to hit all the angles.

The clip is good quality with Italian commentary ( sounds pretty) but the clip is 90 minutes or so long, and I hesitate to put the link up not knowing what kind of billing package people have with their internet usage.

Needless to say, a quick youtube search will find it if people desire and have an unlimited download usage.

[stotty]

Fraser

Perhaps Mac struggled with the wide serve to the forehand in the deuce court and played around with his stance?

Legend has it that Neale Fraser had a great lefty serve. There's a great video of the 1960 Wimbledon final on youtube, and Fraser seems to have a completely opposite setup as compared to Mcenroe as he serves with an open setup with his feet. Yet he seemed to hit all the angles.

The clip is good quality with Italian commentary ( sounds pretty) but the clip is 90 minutes or so long, and I hesitate to put the link up not knowing what kind of billing package people have with their internet usage.

Needless to say, a quick youtube search will find it if people desire and have an unlimited download usage.

I've seen the 1960 clip you refer to. You're obviously as keen as me! It wasn't the most exciting match but the film quality is good, and it gives a good insight into tennis of that era.

He had a really good serve Fraser. It's a fluid action, and he could really swing it well...and hit all the spots, you're right. I always think those more open stances are easier to read than more closed stances, which hide the body more...mind you, no one read Goran's serve too well.

Fraser had a woeful forehand volley, though, for a player of his calibre. Lefties seem to have weak forehand volleys compared with their backhand volleys. I find this a common trait with lefties but have never fathomed why.

I just loved the clip of Mac in 1977 you posted. Thanks so much for that.

[gsheiner]

I've seen the 1960 clip you refer to. You're obviously as keen as me! It wasn't the most exciting match but the film quality is good, and it gives a good insight into tennis of that era.

He had a really good serve Fraser. It's a fluid action, and he could really swing it well...and hit all the spots, you're right. I always think those more open stances are easier to read than more closed stances, which hide the body more...mind you, no one read Goran's serve too well.

Fraser had a woeful forehand volley, though, for a player of his calibre. Lefties seem to have weak forehand volleys compared with their backhand volleys. I find this a common trait with lefties but have never fathomed why.

I just loved the clip of Mac in 1977 you posted. Thanks so much for that.

Thanks for the kind words.

I am as keen as most on this forum, but I remain slightly in awe of the experience, knowledge, and tennis storytelling ability of many on this forum ( such as yourself) so I try to pick my spots with my comments.

I'm sure there are many like myself who read everything and are blown away by the level of discussion.

Happy new year to all!