Fred Bye's FH

[marius hancu]

Checking the clip after the correction: Fred has improved indeed, he's mainly more flexible, turns his body better.

But to see him running to the right for 3 steps with the racket already separated from his left arm in the takeback position, I don't think that's the best idea.

Even Sampras, during a running FH, thus most time critical, didn't "prepare" with this much time ahead.
Say:

http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/Q.Luo/tennis/sampras04.swf

(there's a slo-mo slider on the left)

Having the racket hang at his back for this long introduces a lack of continuity in this loop and a lack of stability in this movement.

One should "trigger" the shot when one is close to being behind the line of the incoming shot, IMO.

Of course one should start the unit-turn and start moving, but starting the loop this early I don't think it's a good idea.

P.S. For those interested, I have a commentary on
Acceleration at contact (observations on Sampras's running FH)
at:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=42851&highlight=Sampras%27s

[johnyandell]

Fred

Marius.

I'll have to say in an ideal world you are right. But what our 3D studies show is that the alleged value of the loop is way overrated. It may be a rhythm thing but it's dubious if it really contributes much to racket head speed. I think one of the real problems with tennis fanatics is knowing what is worth copying/developing.
The full body turn and the correct hitting arm position are the two initial changes Fred needed. I'd much rather see that than a continous looping motion with a poor turn and late hitting arm... The real acceleration of the racket is in the last few frames forward. Where he was that was impossible--now he's got a starting point because he feels the hitting arm position.

[spinit1time]

What about Newton?

I think the reason the loop is so important to the fluidity of a stroke has to do with Newton's law of "an object in motion, stays in motion." If you stop your stroke, it requires energy to start it up again. When players have a stop in their swing, forehand, backhand, or serve, they look to other parts of their body to assist in acceleration. This breaks down the kinetic chain causing a loss of fluidity in the stroke, as well as, a loss of power behind the acceleration.

[johnyandell]

To Loop or Not??

It's a good point. The question is, what's more important--good position at the start of the forward swing or continuous motion. Ideally you want both. But my experience with a few hundreds of players is that everyone has a loop but very few people have the critical hitting arm position correct.

One myth is that much of the racket head speed is built during the loop--it's not--the speed of the loop is usually constant and a fraction of the maximum speed. The real acceleration doesn't start until the hand and arm drop into that double bend power position. You can actually see this in the high speed video in the Archive and in the Advanced Tennis articles.
So priorities. Until you really feel the hitting arm position you can't accelerate. And the old loop pattern many people have prevents this. What I typically see is that compact straight backswing will naturally evolve into a small compact loop.

[spinit1time]

I completely agree with you!

The hitting arm position is essential, and without it, no loop can save you. My comment was only to give reason for the "loop," and it's function within a given stroke. I also agree, having watched hundreds of hours of slo-mo, that the true acceleration begins in the forward part of the swing. But can a stroke, without a loop, impart as much power, pace, and spin? Again, I agree that in teaching Fred proper hitting position, you have improved his stroke. I am only asking for your educated opinion about the loop and it's possible overall effects.

I also would like to ask you about the double-bend position you mentioned. I am very familiar with this position. I work with Andre, Monica, and Jim Courier's former coach, and we have been studying film together for years now, and he is big on this position. Everything we teach, I have to try for myself, and I could never get comfortable with my elbow bending that way. I taped my swings over and over, and my arm always looked straight in this position. Then came Federer. His arm, in this position, is what my arm looked like. Do you see this difference in Roger's swing? What are your thoughts on it?

Last, I would like to say how much I agree with you about "SHUT UP and teach." I have spent the past year watching what I say and it's benefit, if any, to my students. I have tried to recognize when it is better to just not say anything, but give my student time to "feel" what they need to "feel." I have worked hard on not overcoaching, and picking a very limited number of instructions to give a student, so they do not become overwhelmed with words. I use video to create imagery, and try to physically guide them, rather than verbally, when I can. When I do verbalize, I ask for feelings I want them to try for, and this seems to help tremendously. Ex., I want you to "feel" that when you finish your swing, your weight is on your front foot(in the neutral stance). This immediatley gets them to look for balance, (especially if they aren't balanced on the first swing - mistakes can be good) and in turn, they look for better set-up position for the feet, and then they will recognize if their arm is comfortable or not. Many of my students feel a euphoria as they start to feel themselves correct themselves, and I have to say very little to get them there. In fact, the less I say the better!

It is great to see you bring these findings to the masses. I am sure tennis is better for it. Thank you.

[makhan67]

I felt that Fred's initial footwork (adjustment steps) was a bit off and because of that the ball seems to rushing him.

To start with he was keeping his left arm on the throat of the racket but it came off rather prematurely failing to aid in full upper body turn and taking the racket backward and upward. I felt his backswing was low.

Prior to contact, the tip of the racket was too low and one can see that the racket head at contact was dangling to the ground.

From his facial expression it was obvious that it was a painful forehand.

It looked much better after the correction.

The loop does provide more time and space for the racket to generate speed to contact and afterwards. It provides more rhythm, more speed, and more momentum. If you like to return the ball quickly then take a compact backswing. However, if the quickness is not the issue, you are better advised to use your left arm to fully turn the upper body, create the loop, and hit the ball with authority. Many Pros have this loop on their ground strokes.

[michaelm704]

Fred's Bicep/Ribcage Jam

If Fred is listening, I think he'll find a world of improvement if he relaxes the hitting arm away from being so tightly jammed against his ribcage on the backswing. He can flatten a pancake with how tightly his arm is jammed against his ribs.

Since he's so cramped up, the only way to generate any power is to muscle his arm upward forcefully. Contrast that backswing to Agassi and the position of his arm - 90 degrees from his ribcage on the backswing. Fred is at zero. Even if he gets to 45 degrees it will be a major improvement. Making the unit turn might be getting him only halfway to his potential.

John, don't you agree?

[johnyandell]

You got a good point there.

[mntlblok]

Attachment test

Just looking for a place to see if I can attach a little video file. I was also looking to make the same comment about Fred keeping his elbow much closer to his body than Andre.

Kevin

[mntlblok]

File

Hmmm. It shows that there is an attachment, but when I click on it, all I get is a little icon. But, that's the same thing I got when I tried to look at Vin's serve videos.

Kevin

[johnyandell]

Right click as save as target to somewhere on your hard drive.

[mntlblok]

Viewing the video file

Thanks! It worked!

Kevin

[btca_national]

fred's forehand

Dear John,

I have just started to subscribe to your excellent website via the BTCA UK.
A few brief comments:The ball court placements of both clips seems quite different, the improved clip being much wider. Also the video angle is very different, frontal versus a side view. This makes it harder to compare for us.
I do agree with my colleague regarding the early preparation on the back swing.Fred is not using the principles of storing and releasing elastic energy.We know that the benefits of using the elastic stored energy is lost by 50% after 1 sec. So the longer we wait with the forwards forehand swing,the more we have lost the benefits of elastic stored energy.Also I have only seen two clips, but it looks like that Fred likes to stay behind the baseline.
Ron van Heuvelen