My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[GeoffWilliams]

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

[bottle]

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.

Especially as you get older.

[stroke]

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

That was interesting to watch. Agassi did really seem to be enjoying himself as Mac got more and more dramatically unhappy. Jimmy Arias commentating the match said Aggasi really enjoys playing Mac, and giving him a "free therapy session". Agassi is a worst case match up for Mac.

[gordonp]

On another note, McEnroe does not flip on his forehand.

When McEnroe comes forward on his forehand side the racket head is on edge. The only way to flip is having the racket head slightly closed (strings facing to the ground), then it goes on edge. At least that is how I interpret Macci's explaining of the flip which he did for several of my students who work with him.

[stotty]

I don't want to get all "tennis warehouse" over this, but isn't Mac 12 years older then Agassi? He may be a genius but he can't defy the ravages of time.

[don_budge]

Balance...Young Legs, Rolling Wrists and Forearms

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterCourtLevelRear2.mov

You make a couple of nice observations but I sort of wonder if you have some preconceived notion that McEnroe is not swinging at his forehand. Perhaps that is only because of your use of the terms "guided" and "caressed". I see that he is swinging. I like your use of the two names McEnroe and Mecir in the same vein...both continental gripped forehands (?) and both extremely capable of taking the ball early and on the rise...which to a large degree compensates for any perceived lack of “power”. What is power anyways? Power is control over your opponent in the end.

Here in FH Center CourtLevel Rear1 at 35 clicks into the video snapshot McEnroe takes his familiar stance to initiate his swing. Just a couple of comments here for any beginner to advanced tennis player. Note how he is "sitting" into his hindquarters and how his racquet and his shoulders are on virtually the same line. Note also that his feet are virtually on the same line as his shoulders and racquet. This is what I call perfect "get in position" position. Great players manage this position more often than lesser players on a greater percentage of their shots.

Now click ahead to frame 40 and you will notice that McEnroe's shoulders have cleared the way and made room for his arm and racquet to begin swinging on the inside path in front of his body. At frame 42 his racquet has impacted with the ball and at frame 46 his racquet reappears on the other side of his body at the end of his swing and the completion of his follow through. Between frames and 40 and 46 McEnroe's arm and racquet have swung through the complete path of his stroke and it is not a long distance if you compare it to todays long ATP forehand swings. But in no way does that impliy that he is caressing the ball. He has applied all of the levers and he has hit it on the screws. The path of his racquet is perhaps more efficiently delivering the payload into the ball without any superfluous motion. I liken it to tennis_chiro's "Bruce Lee's one inch punch" reference.

Power in today's tennis has been overemphasized due to a number of engineering marvels created by the interfering and meddling hand of the governing bodies of tennis. Tennis shots historically are judged on their effectiveness in terms of power, placement and spin. Equal parts. We saw the turn of the worm in the 1984 Wimbledon Finals that was critiqued by yours truly in my Traditional Thoughts about Tennis thread. In that final Jimmy Connors was virtually overwhelmed by the power of the McEnroe game...chiefly by the serve and the forehand. It was unheard of to overpower Jimmy Connors in those days all things being equal.

Just like the backhand stroke of John McEnroe...the objectives were never to simply overpower which is sort of a thoughtless and barbaric tactic traditionally and rarely culminated in any significant championships. But of course the equipment and court surface have changed all of that. The McEnroe game was cerebral and acutely engaged with his opponents strengths and weaknesses. He dissected and surgically eliminated his competition...much as his success in the doubles game highlights this as well. Perhaps there have not been any rivals to him when you consider the singles and doubles success of John McEnroe. I have never heard in any critique of the McEnroe game that his forehand was some kind of liability.

Did you see what Agassi did to Mc. recently? Killed him, and Mc was left defending, and watching Ag. fh go by him. Way more rpm/pace. Ag. was gloating, and pursing his lips on each fh winner.

But all that being said...to mention John McEnroe and Andre Agassi in the same breath in the year 2013 when discussing the relative merits to any given stroke...you would be remiss not to mention that there is a 12 year age difference between the two. The difference in 54 year old legs and 42 year old legs is significant. If you cannot get your legs under you for any given shot...of course you are going to see a distorted view of things through your own eyes if you fail to take that little fun fact into account.

On another note, McEnroe does not flip on his forehand.

When McEnroe comes forward on his forehand side the racket head is on edge. The only way to flip is having the racket head slightly closed (strings facing to the ground), then it goes on edge. At least that is how I interpret Macci's explaining of the flip which he did for several of my students who work with him.

One of the catalysts for this thread was the question as to whether or not McEnroe flipped. I have come to feel that “flipping” is a bad word to use when referring to the action of the wrist when hitting a forehand. 10splayer has come as close to anyone in defining it but I believe that rolling is a much better term.

McEnroe does roll his wrist (actually his forearm and wrist together) and so does Roger Federer. The big difference in the role of the wrist roll of the two players is the size of the circumference of the rolls and this has much to do with the difference in the grips. The stronger the grip the greater allowance for the circumference of the rolling of the forearm and wrist...which is why we see the racquet face down in the stronger grips. The continental grip is going to restrict the rolling of the forearm to a large degree compared to the strong eastern...as when comparing the action between McEnroe and Federer.

The action of the wrist is taking place on a much smaller scale...but if you check the position of the thumb on the racquet in the backswing, at impact and after follow through you will indeed find that the wrist is rolling with the weight of the racquet head. See the position of the thumb in frame 35 as compared to it’s position in frame 46.

[bottle]

A nice discussion that maligns no one (except for them and them and them). What I most like is that this particular video gives us ballpark indication of where the vigorous swing begins. The racket has gone down and up and then slanted in (in a smaller final move of preparation than mine but mine is about to get smaller, too). The body then gets out of the way as racket descends a bit more. And roll characterizes power part without being the whole of it.

[stotty]

McEnroe/Agassi

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear2.mov

You make a couple of nice observations but I sort of wonder if you have some preconceived notion that McEnroe is not swinging at his forehand.

I feel this thread could go on forever. There is always something to say in it...always something to add. What an enigma McEnroe is.

I wouldn’t for one moment suggest that McEnroe wasn’t swinging at the ball with velocity. He did. It’s just that comparatively speaking it’s a lot less violent than the typical ATP forehand of today. Some of his forehands were hit hard, some were steered and guided with great timing and feel. He had it all. And never would I suggest his forehand was weak in any way...just unusual.

Matts Willander’s comments about the difficulty of playing McEnroe ring very true with me.

In 1974 Connors slaughtered Rosewall at Wimbledon losing just a handful of games. In 1984 Connors had the same done to him on the same court by McEnroe. In 1992 it looked for all the world like Agassi would behead McEnroe in the same way. Deja vu. Hang around too long and this is what happens. You have to know when you’re finished. Boxers never know when their finished. No one in their corner ever tells them while there is still money to be made. In the end they get humiliated. It’s a cruel game boxing. A game of dirty money and exploitation.

But McEnroe did okay against Agassi. Sure he lost in straight sets, but he made himself so difficult to play against, so hard to get pace against, so hard to get hold of by the scruff of the neck. I never once saw McEnroe get slaughtered. He always had something in the bag to counter a pending annihilation, even in his later years.

[don_budge]

I finally took some video of groundstrokes yesterday. Quality is not great because of indoor lighting, but you can see what's going on. There's just one backhand followed by one forehand (they're all pretty much the same). It's at 240fps at 1/8th speed from an iPhone using Hudl app (no longer available). Posted it because everyone likes picking apart strokes don't they? Any comments welcomed.

Good stuff glacierguy! Regards the backhand...very nice. Looking at the point where you are transitioning from backswing to forwards swing...excellent creation of the three lines from the don_budge school of stroke production. The line of the shoulders...the line of the racquet and the line of the feet (from the end of the toes). The one observation that I have is if you had taken one half step to get a bit closer to the shot then you could have stepped some degrees more towards the net which enables you to transfer more energy in that direction. It appears that the line that you create with your feet might be approximately 15 to 20 degrees relative to the baseline, while the lines of your racquet and shoulders appears to be a nice 45 degrees. It cannot always be perfect...but the better you place your feet the better you get your ASS (hips) in position. This is one of the most fundamental keys to balance, transfer of energy and effectiveness of strokes. 45 degrees would be a nice placement of the feet. You see that your hips are about 45 degrees relative to the net as it is...it would be interesting if you would submit a shot where you are placing your feet at a similar angle. I notice that the back foot comes up and around in order to keep your balance.

Which brings us to the forehand. Oh my goodness...it's a continental gripped forehand. When I first looked at the video...I started to react to it from the "Living Proof of Roger Federer" part of my tennis teaching paradigm. But a part of me remembered something deep from my past life as a tennis teaching professional. Eureka! It was my experiment and analysis of the John McEnroe forehand. Anyways...it was a good excuse to dig up this thread from the past. At least you will find it interesting. I pretty much read it through without looking at each individual video, which I analysed individually. I'm not so sure that your forehand is such a liability as when I first saw it. It might indeed be a very viable weapon in your arsenal, if used tactically judiciously.

This thread brings back old memories at any rate. Some of the old players on this forum...bottle, 10splayer, tennis_chiro. What great fun it was. An incredible thread really. My ideas fly in the face of conventional wisdom. It was obvious to me at the time. But I couldn't resist. The temptation was too great. I loved the play and wizardry of John McEnroe when I was young and competitive. At any rate...it's amusing. It makes me smile. Remembering when I was don_budge.

[glacierguy]

Thanks so much for digging up this thread - that is some serious analysis of my idol from teenage years. And you're right, the quality of other contributors is impressive and stimulating.

I think you've answered the question of where my initial low, lazy-looking racquet take back comes from - way back from the 80s! I can't shake it off. I thought I was incorporating some modern elements learnt from TennisPlayer in my forehand whilst sticking with a continental grip, but the video evidence suggests it's still stuck in the 80s and hasn't evolved a jot.

At least now you all know that my handle glacierguy is accurate - I fell into a glacier crevass sometime in the early 80s and popped out at the bottom 30+ years later playing throwback tennis.

To cement the link, if the video was a little crisper, you would see that I'm wearing a BORG t-shirt, of which I have many, and which remind me of the old days.

[don_budge]

Thanks so much for digging up this thread - that is some serious analysis of my idol from teenage years. And you're right, the quality of other contributors is impressive and stimulating.

I think you've answered the question of where my initial low, lazy-looking racquet take back comes from - way back from the 80s! I can't shake it off. I thought I was incorporating some modern elements learnt from TennisPlayer in my forehand whilst sticking with a continental grip, but the video evidence suggests it's still stuck in the 80s and hasn't evolved a jot.

At least now you all know that my handle glacierguy is accurate - I fell into a glacier crevass sometime in the early 80s and popped out at the bottom 30+ years later playing throwback tennis.

To cement the link, if the video was a little crisper, you would see that I'm wearing a BORG t-shirt, of which I have many, and which remind me of the old days.

You are very welcome glacierguy. Yeah...what's in a name? We are both throwbacks from another era and we both know it. You know what that makes us? Aware. We were congnizant before all of the new normal became standard issue. So be it.

It was ten years ago as we type on our keyboards that I wrote up this thread. I worked pretty hard on it apparently. As in everything else I do...if I am interested...I dug into it to read all that I could. Mostly I look for things between the lines...if you know what I mean and I suspect you do. Ten years...a lot of change in ten years. Things are changing so fast these days. Enough change in the last ten years compared to what happened in the twenty years before that. Thirty years even. Actually we have no idea. We are not told. We can only speculate.

When I saw your video I knew I had to make an appearance. It is the end of the year. For at least ten years I wrote enough on this forum to write a book entitled "The Year in Tennis 2011" and so forth. Your strokes are retrograde for sure and it all comes out in the discussion in this thread. Nearly to a man the other posters were focused on correcting me or trying to trot out their take on the McEnroe game as some kind of expert. Except for bottle...ironically enough. Whatever happened to bottle in the end...I can only hope for the best but it didn't look promising. But that was quite ok with me as I was totally unfazed or distracted about what it was that I set out to do. I tried to capture the essence of McEnroe on the tennis court. On the forehand side. I think that I did. I proceeded to do the same thing on the backhand side. I read a book that was called "Being John McEnroe"...I think you should too.

But this wasn't just a vanity post to dig up an example of my writing. Although the possiblility remains that a certain percentage of it was. I am proud of this work as I wrote it. Ten years later. It helps me to mark the years and analyse my very own development. To analyse my own performance. I am more critical of myself than anyone or anything else. It is where I get my practice. But here's the thing as it relates to you. Your game is retro...in retrospect. Isn't it? When I first saw your video and saw the backhand I thought to myself...not half bad. In fact...pretty damn good. Maybe tinker with the feet just a bit. Ala McEnroe. One of the glaring things that came out of the individual stroke videos was the meticulous footwork. Just a tinker. The stroke is really, really good. Shoulder down to hit up into the drive and shoulder up to drive down into the slice. That's my motto on the backhand. The Don Budge backhand in my model. The slice would be the key to your game. The tactical stroke in your game. To play defence with offence in mind.

So it comes down to the forehand. When I first saw yours I didn't realize that it was the "dreaded" Continental grip. There were a couple of forum posters that really believed that I was some sort of apostate for exploring the McEnroe forehand in 2012 as if it were some sort of blasphemy on the modern game of tennis. My position wasn't so much an argument for either for or against. My position was one of curiosity. I even tried to play that way myself. It was exciting running in the outside lane. People think you are insane. Right in my wheel house. When I first saw your forehand I was thinking of tinkering with the backswing and making it look "Federesque". But after I messaged you and you confirmed it was indeed Continental, I dug up this thread and read it from beginning to end. My conclusion? Go the full McEnroe glacierguy. Instead of looping the backswing back, let that racquet head drop like Johnny Bad Boy does. Give it a whirl. How does that feel? Pretty damn good I suspect. Work on those three lines...feet, shoulders and racquet. Work on getting those lines all set up and perfect on each individual shot and play the ball strategically and tacticly just like our hero did in his battles with not only his opponents...but with himself. He drove himself nuts trying to get those lines perfect each and every time. He amused us with his antics in the process. It was amusing if you understood what it like to be John McEnroe in the 1980's...such a long, long time ago. I think it is just great that here we are forty years later and there is at least one guy left in that paradigm...you. Throw in some antics while you are working at it glacierguy. Just for laughs. It's probably a little out of your wheelhouse. You seem like a much more sensible fellow that the obsessed, compulsive McEnroe.

So back at you glacierguy. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

[don_budge]

My main problem is putting away mid-court balls on the forehand. It's extremely frustrating to get on top in the rally, force a weak return, and then fail to put it away. Drives me nuts.

Since I'm not up for changing grip, I will endeavour to: get more left arm extension and coil, lower wider base, contact more in front with better hitting arm extension through line of shot. By tomorrow. Which is when I think I'll video again.

I'm glad you quite like my backhand, it always used to be my better shot, but has taken longer to reappear after my layoff.

Word of the day...it's dazzling. Especially in the context. A word wizard.

aplomb...self-confidence or assurance, especially in a demanding situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4liRiHs5taI

Here's a real wizard for you glacierguy. Changing grips is often a path for self annihilation in such endeavors as tennis or golf. Even sword play. You want to cut your own throat...change grips. That is a path of no return. After a switch, sometimes the old comfy grip never quite feels the same. I watched my old tennis doubles partner go through such a thing. He was stuck with something resembling continental...but strange to say it worked for him.

Here's the thing. Here is the crux of your dillema on the forehand. It is the sword of McEnroe...you see. Both of these clown/wizards made their living going forwards. A ball in the mid court is an invitation to go to the net. That is what my old tennis coach taught me. He and Tilden, Hopman and all the rest. Go forwards young man. Instead of hitting a winner...play it smart. Play the percentages and play an approach shot. A shot that is designed to open up the court for you to volley. At most two volleys.

In your case the conversation can be one of technique until the cows come home. But try the path of least resistance and make it a tactical problem. You are sort of running in the outside lane here. Conventional wisdom is going to tell you to change your grip. But is that the wise thing to do at this point in the game. Get on top of the mid court ball early. Before it gets too high out of your wheel house. Crowd your opponent and take a bit of time away from him. Get on top of the net. It's a gamble. Look at McEnroe and Nastase. A fool's mission? I don't think so.

This continental grip game was designed to go forwards. Engineered to play the whole court. Force your opponent to play the entire court. Make him play your game. Slay him with a thousand cuts...at least two or three per point. It will add up to thousand by the time you are done with him.

[don_budge]

On this video, scroll to around 66. Place your finger on the red dot and roll it slightly to the right, back and forth. Your are trying to toggle back from loading at 66.0 and contact at 66.6( having a wheel or mouse that toggles one frame at a time is helpful). Go to John's archives and try to find the same frames for Del Potro or Federer on neutral stances with their forehand. Many players have the racket tip pointed a little more forward ( higher elbow as a result) which will give a little more flip. They also seem to have a wider stance which allows a rotational swing with less forward weight shift. The narrow stance seems to be focused on a larger forward weight shift for a more linear swing. I am not sure if the footwork to setup to load for a rotational swing, but I sure gained some power on both the fh and bh when I made the switch. Your stroke is so nice, only a small tweak. The best thing is to use John's process of side by side video comparison and reinforcement with visual and kinesthetic imaging.

Linear versus rotational? Not so sure. When I first saw the Glacier Forehand I immediately thought the same thing from my very first, initial impression. But something was out of whack. It didn't add up. The eye doesn't lie. It was in the grip. I immediately message GG and he confirmed...it was continental Baby. The game changer. Just throw modern tennis "conventional" wisdom out the window. Chuck it out the window with yesterday's garbage. Much as I did ten years ago when I started this threat. When the forum was really a forum. Ahhh...yesterday. Phil used to accuse me of living in the past. gzhpcu he used to call himself. I wonder what happened to Phil. Another great guy who used to love to butt heads with little old don_budge. But you see the same sort of thing in this thread. I know it is all my doing too. I seem to revel being on the outside...looking in. Much as I am doing these days. I keep an eye on things. But frankly...there has been very little to say. Part of it is that Roger has left the stadium. But most of it...well, better to not get started. I feel bad for JY. The fabulous has turned to mundane.

glacierguy...are you still there? I know I'm not participating in your thread. Much as I would like to. But don_budge is only a specter here on the forum. But even so...there is just one little thread that keeps my head in the game. In the game of tennis. glacierguy isn't the new breed that has taken over here. Something makes me want to help. As I did for the last ten years.

As I was saying...when I first saw the initiation of your forehand backswing something inside of me anticipated the backswing to actually go down instead of in a loop. Once the cat was out of the bag and the grip was confirmed as continental I knew why. I immediately summoned this thread from the dustbin of tennisplayer memories and lo and behold there it was. Johnny Bad Boy. Your hero and mine as well. The advice? Try the low backswing of McEnroe with your continental grip. Move forwards on the ball and crowd that baseline. TAKE IT ON THE RISE WHENEVER YOU CAN. That midcourt ball is an invitation to the net...not an invitation to make a mashed potato out of the ball. You can do so many things with a grip like that. You can hit the ball with sidespin...even underspin. You can hit the ball short and angled. You can reach the deep part of the court because the lack of topspin doesn't bring the ball down. You can dropshot. You can volley. I know...I know. It means trashing conventional wisdom. It goes against the grain. Right up your alley...glacierguy. You know the score.

The looping backswing keeps you pinned deep behind the baseline. Particularly with the "dreaded" continental grip. Bill Tilden advised that it is tough to play the high ball with such a grip. Right where the opposition wants you. Never give your opponent the shot he likes to hit. From "The Art of War" or Bill Tilden's "Match Play and the Spin of the Ball" comes the basis of your tactics. Take a look at each one of the shots and the explanation that I wrote about the video. A little story about each shot from the John McEnroe repetoire. Trust me...he had many, many more. Drop shot and lob for goodness sakes! Throw everything at the opponent including the kitchen sink. One thing more...always one more thing isn't it? Now John Yandell gives the viewer of this library of tennis videos the option of switching the view of the left handed McEnroe to a right handed McEnroe. This change in your backswing changes the entire paradigm of your game. Instead of the baseline labrador retriever you morph into stealth attack mode. Give it a whirl. Or not. You are the captain glacierguy. I am just a voice in the wilderness. Soon to disappear entirely. But you never know where I might pop up next.

[glacierguy]

don_budge, I am convinced. You are right, I need to embrace what I have and use it to maximum effect. My game was based upon exactly what you describe - always advancing to the net, and bang, one or two volleys to finish. This recent video experience has been odd though. As I mentioned before, after a few years of being enlightened by TennisPlayer on the techniques of the modern game, I was under the impression that I had incorporated some elements into my forehand. I hadn't! The mind plays tricks. Having studied the recent videos (of me), read your posts on McEnroe and watched some older TennisPlayer video, I now know I should stick with the continental gripped forehand and the game that comes with it - press the net.

One of your comments struck home - "you can hit with sidespin". Indeed I can. I have had opponents at the end of matches say they were completely beaten by my inside out forehands that I allow to slide off the face of the racquet and skid out into the tramlines at zero altitude.

So, I shall learn to love the continental, and save more modern techniques for my backhand and serve.

Thank you so much for helping me clear the fog and see to the heart of the matter.

I am about to post some of yesterday's forehands on the other thread, which whilst definitely continental, have some more extension through the line of the ball (I think!).

[stroke]

McEnroe was no doubt a genius as a tennis player. Well into his 50's, he competed very well on the Senior tour against players sometimes 15 or so years younger. Wilander once said it best to me, saying "Mac can make you feel real stupid out there". He did not change his continental grip for either side, and could hit topspin off it off both sides, almost stand alone doing it with that grip on the forehand. Taking the ball early, he was top shelf, Fed like, once again, his grip a big reason. He was the best volleyer ever. He invented the SABR, not Fed. Drop shots off both sides, best ever. His slice backhand, with his truncated motion, was ahead of his time.