My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[don_budge]

Repost...The John McEnroe forehand as viewed INSIDE OUT...

Repost for easy reference...

FH InsideOut CourtLevel Front- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelFront.mov

one of the big advantages of the mcenroe continental forehand is his ability to deceive and hold onto to his intentions until the very last moment. here it appears that he has set himself up on the backside of his court in a closed stance and he is going to drive into his opponents backhand court but instead he has turned around and hit something that looks like it is going to be deep into his opponents forehand corner. no doubt he is already thinking about all of the likely responses and deciding on his next move. mcenroe plays a lot of chess on tennis court as he always seems to be one step ahead of his opponent...tactically speaking.

FH InsideOut CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov

just to the right of center mcenroe is set in an open stance and once again it appears that he may be leaning on hitting a cross court shot but instead he elects to go down the line with a low bullet. his opponent was clearly unsure as to what side to commit to and now he will be chasing and hitting up to an approaching mcenroe as he has sensed that he has his opponent in all kinds of trouble and is sneaking into the net to seal the deal.

[don_budge]

Repost...The John McEnroe forehand as viewed SHORT...

Repost for easy reference...

FH Short Front- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ShortFront.mov

one of the most interesting features of the continental forehand is the variety of shots that can be played inside the baseline...as in approaching the net. here mcenroe is moving slightly to his right electing to play on the forehand side and in a semi open stance he hits his trademark low slightly flatter forehand to his opponents forehand. the continental forehand has the distinction of landing the player with the weight moving forwards and with less falling over to the opposite side. by directing the weight more forwards for playing approach shots the natural inclination will be to move towards the net.

FH Short Front1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...hortFront1.mov

here from virtually the same position in the court mcenroe elects to close his stance to a semi closed and now he sends a dart to the opponents backhand side. his hooking left handed spin will have the additional effect of keeping the ball moving away from his opponent as well. these two forehands are also an excellent example of the element of disguise and control built into this shot. on the first short forehand it appears to me that the normal approach from an open stance would be cross court and not the inside out that he plays. in this second example the reverse is true...it appears that his natural inclination from this setup would be to play reverse cross court but instead he has tucked it neatly into the opponents backhand side where no doubt they will be digging it out of the pavement and hitting up to the catlike mcenroe ready to pounce at the net.

[don_budge]

Repost...The John McEnroe forehand as viewed SLICE...

Repost for easy reference...

FH Slice Wide CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov

of course one cannot complete a study of the mcenroe forehand without mentioning the slice. we have talked about the disappearance of the slice forehand and it could very well of gone extinct when johnny said good bye. johnny bye bye for all of you springsteen fans. take a look at this little defensive gem because he may play this slice in a variety of ways ranging from purely defensive purposes to subtle attack. just before impact this shot from behind the baseline has all of the appearances of a volley like stroke. the racquet head is even higher than the level of his hand. this particular shot hit off a very aggressive ball from his opponent has the appearance of a safe play into the middle of the court which will leave mcenroe with only option on the next ball...to guess where his opponent will be trying to finish the point. if he guesses right my money is on his trying to further neutralize things or to try to his some kind of brilliant winner. if he guesses wrong he will only be hoping for an uncharacteristic miss from his opponent. you cannot rule out the miss either because keep in mind that mcenroe has been jerking his opponent all over the court for the duration of the match and nothing seems to be a given...even the sitters take on the sense of an adventure. the unpredictability of the mcenroe game takes its toll on you as an opponent...that is without even factoring in the mental gymnastics.

[don_budge]

Repost...The John McEnroe forehand as viewed as a DROP SHOT...

Repost for easy reference...

FH DropShot CourtLevel Front1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront1.mov

after having elicited the weakest of returns from his opponent...perhaps after torturing him with four or five variations and combinations of forehands and backhands he is looking at a ball that he just plays safely and softly over the net and assumes the ready position just in case his hapless opponent manages to get to this before the second bounce. he just used a bunting technique on this ball with no muss and no fuss.

FH DropShot CourtLevel Front2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...evelFront2.mov

here is a drop shot with a little more delicate nature. like a federer featherer only much riskier...johnny can hold on to his intentions until the last moment by assuming his normal take back stance and the racquet in backswing mode. at the last possible moment he lifts the racquet face up and behind the ball and applies the knifing action to kill the ball from bouncing significantly. although he is using quite a bit of arm motion on this shot the rotation of the shoulders is doing the brunt of the work even on this touchy feely drop shot.

FH DropShot CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov

here you go...some brilliant disguise. assuming the backswing stance and halfway through the backswing it turns into something totally different. the opponent never saw it coming until it was way too late. mcenroe sort of cupped this attempt which is the ultimate demonstration of touch and risky wrist movement on the forehand side. well...afterall he is a genius with a tennis racquet. say what you want.

FH DropShot Rear1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...pShotRear1.mov

after viewing all of the different things that he is capable of pulling off from this position on the court the opponent has the daunting task of guessing what is going to come off of that racquet. he may have driven the previous three balls deep into the forehand corner from this position but here he decides to kill him softly...ever so softly.

[don_budge]

In Conclusion...The Continental Grips of John McEnroe

My journey into the continental gripped game as best exemplified and the latest example by the great American tennis player John McEnroe is now over. For the time being. At least as far as any more posting on the forum. For the meantime. I reserve the right to change my mind. I have reposted my thoughts and the video clips for my convenience and for yours if you find them of any interest. Now these threads can drift into obscurity with the rest of the words that I have chosen to write to you. To all of you...my good fellows and ladies too.

The journey was based upon a collage of comments, threads and posts that were viewed here on tennisplayer.net. Wilander vs. McEnroe, stroke, Does McEnroe Flip?, Karsten Popp...and on and on and on. It sort of morphed into a dream...even a hallucination at times. Connect the dots...seek the meaning of life. You will find that it is simple and simply put. Do your best. For yourself and by others. Have a little respect. For the past. For your elders. For life in general. Don't seek the path of least resistance...go for the one that is less travelled. Don't let the other guy outwork you. Don't let the other guy outthink you. Be aware!

I will continue to pursue playing tennis in this continental gripped manner and dedicate my efforts to all of the classic tennis players of the past. And to the great teachers of the past. Before the days of virtual reality...and virtual morality (my term). Before the days of "modern tennis". And to bottle. Keep an open mind everyone! Be free! Or die! I think it was stroke who opined that this manner of playing the game was best for seniors and I am wondering with the results that I have gotten if this style might not be revived except for the fact that conventional wisdom frowns upon it and from this point forwards there is only one way to play the modern game of tennis. Of course with all of the engineering of equipment, court surfaces and the brain washing with the politically correct mentality, it is a hard sell to think differently.

Well the herd is going one way and I the other. Nothing new under the sun...as I look out on the Swedish country side from my office window...like Johnny Depp in the The Secret Window. A winter's day or a winter's night. Depending upon where you are. I am here and you are there. Over and out...from yours truly...don_budge.

[don_budge]

Born To Run...Bruce Springsteen...and Tennis Bums

A tramp like me...like some runaway American Dream. The audacity to dream...and to think clearly. To diverge from the path well worn...by the herd. Living outside of the box mentality and rejecting conventional wisdom. If...and only if. Turn up the volume...if you dare.

I'll love you with all the madness in my soul
I want to know if love is wild, girl I want to know if love is real

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xF8SThFaw

Born to Run...Bruce Springsteen

In the day we sweat it out on the streets of a runaway American dream
At night we ride through the mansions of glory in suicide machines
Sprung from cages out on highway 9,
Chrome wheeled, fuel injected,and steppin' out over the line
Baby this town rips the bones from your back
It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap
We gotta get out while we're young
`Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

yes, girl we were

Wendy let me in I wanna be your friend
I want to guard your dreams and visions
Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims
and strap your hands 'cross my engines
Together we could break this trap
We'll run till we drop, baby we'll never go back
h-Oh, Will you walk with me out on the wire
`Cause baby I'm just a scared and lonely rider
But I gotta know how it feels
I want to know if love is wild
Babe I want to know if love is real

Oh, can you show me

Beyond the Palace hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard
Girls comb their hair in rearview mirrors
And the boys try to look so hard
The amusement park rises bold and stark
Kids are huddled on the beach in a mist
I wanna die with you Wendy on the street tonight
In an everlasting kiss

1-2-3-4!

The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive
Everybody's out on the run tonight
but there's no place left to hide
Together Wendy we can live with the sadness
I'll love you with all the madness in my soul
h-Oh, Someday girl I don't know when
we're gonna get to that place
Where we really wanna go
and we'll walk in the sun
But till then tramps like us
baby we were born to run

Oh honey, tramps like us
baby we were born to run

Come on with me, tramps like us
baby we were born to run

The continental gripped forehand is a viable option...so is the eastern, western and all points in between. To reject any of it is pure madness...living in a box, teaching in a vacuum. I am not saying that the ATP forehand isn't popular...one only has to open their eyes. That is easy. But guess what...the game the way McEnroe played and many before him is equally viable. It is only that the coaching was hijacked in 1984 and the coaching world was seduced. Of course it's the equipment with the racquets and things...the strings, the courts. But the real pathetic nature of it all is that the minds were hypnotized by the slogan that "image is everything". That was all that they had to say...with some slick advertising, some slick coaches spokespersons and the herd followed over the cliff.

To teach the continental forehand and backhand is irresponsible...that is some crazy talk. Every tennis coach worth his salt should be able to teach every shot from every conceivable angle. From the baseline to the net and all points in between. With a Continental, Eastern or Western...what the hell throw in the Galactica Grip...why not? Cookie cutter box mentality. What does the USPTA testing look like? I have never seen it. Does that make me ineligible to teach tennis? Why would Patrick McEnroe and Jose Higueras advocate following the Spanish mode of operation? Has America run out of someone capable of taking the bull by the horns? I guess that I answered my own question...look at Washington. Look at American Tennis.

But think about it...four American champions in the past 40 years. I would say great but that would include Agassi...Mr. Image is Everything. Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi. Four different styles...two left handed and two right handed. Two two handed backhands...two one handed backhands. One of each. It's perfect. There are four monkeys for you...go from there.

Like some runaway American Dream...

[don_budge]

Thanks gordonp...

Hi Bottle,

He showed me how he rolled his wrist to create spin. I checked out the first forehand video on tennisplayer with McEnroe. If you start at the beginning and hit the arrow key it occurs at frame 37 to 38. At frame 37, you see McEnroe's palm and fingers, the next frame it appears he rolled his wrist. I believe that was what he talked about. I tried it the next day but couldn't do it.
Please understand this interview happened many years ago I never expected John to take his racket out of his bag and demonstrate it. I was taken aback. We had just finished a twenty minute one on one interview and he was still dressed in his towel. I knew he wanted to get out of there.
I thought of asking more questions but that wasn't the reason I was in the lockerroom so I stopped myself. It was my first interview with a pro athlete. I will say John was genuine and engaged in our conversation.
In regards to an earlier comment, the continental and Eastern forehand grips were standard at the time at Port Washington but the game was beginning to change and evolve into today's ATP forehand.
I wonder if new equipment (strings and rackets) had more to do with the demise of the continental forehand than anything else.

Your story about your interview with John McEnroe at the South Orange Tennis Club in South Orange, New Jersey is like a breath of fresh air...like a cleansing wind in a dusty, moldy room that has been boarded up airtight for many years. The vision of John McEnroe leaping to his feet clad only in a towel...excitedly and passionately demonstrating his forehand technique is an image that is etched in my mind forever. Thank you very much for your contribution to the forum these past few days. I have found it to be quite enlightening.

McEnroe may have said he was rolling his wrist but it looks to me as if his whole arm is rolling. By the way...my very own forehand has never been better since I changed my grip some few months back. My arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball.

[gordonp]

I would tend to agree with what you are saying. Like I said, I didn't grasp what he said 100 percent but I didn't persist. My coach at the time, George Bacso didn't think he was using that much wrist either.
It's funny but when I later questioned Jimmy Connors in regards to his flat forehand he became very argumentative-- the complete opposite of McEnroe. Had Connors hit with a tad more spin would his results have been any better ?

[don_budge]

Frame by frame...cue right arrow

I think you should try John McEnroe's wrist action in a continental forehand again and make it work this time.

I got up the clip:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterFront.mov

I shut my eyes and pushed the right arrow 37 times per your instruction.

Now, what's wrist doing-- at contact?

It's moving, right, but how? And in what direction? And the arm is rolling a little. In fact, if you measured out-- in roughly equal amounts-- the arm roll and the wrist laying back, the two would almost cancel each other out to preserve the original pitch of John McEnroe's zombie arm swing but maybe come over the ball just a bit.

Am I wrong? And isn't this exploration more fun than asking if the novel, the continental forehand and God are dead? Those are hackneyed subjects that usually lead to dull conversation.

Your answer in # 31, gordonp, for which I'm very grateful, has made the question I asked more real even for me.

Goal: to solve a little bit of mystery very likely to be clouded by myth, i.e., John McEnroe's hands are so special, he's such a genius, nothing he does could ever apply to the ordinary you or me.

Maybe, but on the other hand he founded a tennis school. So he must believe in education and communication as true possibility.

Moreover, he wished to make something technical clear way back in that locker room, in unguarded and spontaneous enthusiasm-- a time to trust some source the most?

I always wonder, in cases like this: What if the great man doesn't inhabit some other planet but is rather being more simple and straightforward than the rest of us?

Because the McEnroe forehand has fewer things about it to go wrong than most of the forehands we ever see or model.

To be sure, what parts there are must be in perfect order, and something other than wrist could be causing one's McEnroe imitation to go wrong.

Let's check a few more videos to see if this backward giving wrist idea can persist, and if so, can one appropriate it as part of one's personal arsenal?

I learned a little something...and it all adds up! The right arrow takes you frame by frame through the videos. That sure beats dragging through with the mouse.

But what gordonp is asserting through his conversation with John McEnroe, who was informally expounding on the virtue of his continental grip, is exactly the experience that I have had with this experiment.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterFront.mov

By my count...it is 39 clicks to the point in his stroke where the wrist is beginning to do its subtle work. When the racquet is directly under the "Q" for Quality. It is at this point in the swing that the swing has worked its way up from his feet through his legs and into his hips and upwards through the shoulders and finally the arm...at click 39 the wrist is poised to do it's job of releasing all of the energy through that chain of events to deliver the payload into the ball. This is very Hoganesque...one can almost visualize a golf club in his hands and I definitely see flex in the wrist here. In golf speak we might say that his wrist is "cocked".

At click 40 he is making contact with the ball or nearly so and immediately afterwards the racquet goes zooming past McEnroe where for all intents and purposes it finishes at click 46. There is no more energy to be produced at this point. It's a perfect Yandelian finish...eye level with the hand in line with the opposite shoulder. This is where I visualize my finish.

John raises a couple of important points as to why this stroke works and will work in the hands of anyone and not just McEnroe. A good part of the hands ability and genius of McEnroe can be attributed to his technique and to his style now...as far as I am concerned. And apparently as far as he is concerned as he was passionately engaged in conversation with gordonp so many years ago. Of course he is supremely talented but lesser talents can use this technique to their advantage as easily as he did. If only they are taught or somehow otherwise learn the wherefor's and the why's.

He hits with topspin...and so do I. I posted that Davis Cup clip from Argentina somewhere where he exchanged topspin shots with Guillermo Vilas for five tough grueling sets down on the red clay of Buenos Aires. Back in those days there were significant differences in the surfaces and some styles were more suitable for specific surfaces. McEnroe was not a clay court specialist by reputation but he could have made his mark there if he had chosen to...I am convinced.

The McEnroe tactical objective with his forehand is to pierce as well as to probe. His low spinning darts are an excellent counter to the heavily top spun ball particularly when you factor in that this type of swing is conducive to taking the ball early and on the rise. As far as hitting winners off of the forehand side...that was not necessarily his first objective either but he certainly could. Personally I feel that I hit more winners with this technique. His was a tactical game that was more often than not concluded at the net where he either had a put away or his opponent made the error. There used to be style in the play of tennis. Not everyone is cut out to play huge topspin. People...and players are different.

Because the McEnroe forehand has fewer things about it to go wrong than most of the forehands we ever see or model.

For me this is one of the most important aspects of all when taking into consideration the plusses and minuses. I played the Federfore as bottle has coined it before I switched to the McEnroesque and this swing is much simpler and it simply takes far less energy to produce. With the ATP version of the forehand it seems to me that the action of the wrist is over exaggerated compared to the action of McEnroe's wrist and this is what really appeals to me. Being from a quality control background...less movement means less variation which should in turn produce more consistency through efficiency of motion.

[bottle]

Your story about your interview with John McEnroe at the South Orange Tennis Club in South Orange, New Jersey is like a breath of fresh air...like a cleansing wind in a dusty, moldy room that has been boarded up airtight for many years. The vision of John McEnroe leaping to his feet clad only in a towel...excitedly and passionately demonstrating his forehand technique is an image that is etched in my mind forever. Thank you very much for your contribution to the forum these past few days. I have found it to be quite enlightening.

McEnroe may have said he was rolling his wrist but it looks to me as if his whole arm is rolling. By the way...my very own forehand has never been better since I changed my grip some few months back. My arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball.

"My arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball."

[gordonp]

Thanks.

Should we ask John Yandell to ask John McEnroe about this?

[bottle]

Yes!

[bottle]

In Tennis: Take Hogan’s Secret Downstairs

The following may merely be my personal take on how best to hit a “McEnroe-esque” forehand. There could be another way that’s better, but I’m pleased—right now—with this one.

In this famous video Ben Hogan demonstrates the two different planes in his golf swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywZ4b6vjFc

In this video, Sir Toby Belch explains “Hogan’s Secret.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58A1-abPcEM

In another video, which I won’t include, the golfer Doug Tewell rejects the notion of twisting open club face on backswing and twisting it closed on foreswing. In his simplified system—for sale—he advocates “square to square.”

In an earlier post I described my first attempts at personal cross-hybridization of these ideas over to tennis in a continental forehand. They included extra roll and great extension from the elbow slapshot-style right in the middle of the forward stroke.

Ultimate simplification may lie in imitation of John McEnroe’s zombie arm, with “zombie arm” being the arm straightness he achieves in his rhythmic down and up backswing.

One can easily learn this. But one needs to start sending racket a bit to the outside to make space for subsequent cockeyed loop. One also needs to accelerate the down and up to make time for that curved drop.

Even though the arm is straight the elbow can effectively slide into the edge of one’s body as in “Hogan’s secret.”

Then you swing to the ball and “arm rolls with the weight of the racquet head coming over and through the ball," to adapt the words of Steve Navarro, just one version of the “poptop” the Gullickson brothers used to talk about.

There’s no mention here of gross body contribution, which could be natural and automatic for some athletes. One can learn the needed body moves, also precise and essential, through reading about them and/or watching video.

[don_budge]

John Yandell...

Thanks.

Should we ask John Yandell to ask John McEnroe about this?

I don't think that John Yandell reads this thread...but personally I think that there is a great story here. Especially if we could get some answers from John McEnroe himself. I wish that McEnroe could see this thread (plus My Thoughts on the McEnroe Backhand thread) for himself to see that there are still some dinosaurs around that appreciate his style of play...and I wonder what his response would be. He seems to be a very engaging guy.

[stotty]

One more thing...

One notable key to McEnroe's success lies in the stillness of his upper body. His upper body remains vertical, still, and "calm" throughout the stroke. The body acts as a post while the shoulder and upper arm do the guiding and steering, made possible and underpinned by his great set up and wonderful balance.

Stillness can equate to exquisite timing. McEnroe and Mecir were equally "still" players and two of the best timers of a ball you will ever see.

Contrary to the ATP forehand which unleashes itself following a series of critical events, McEnroe's forehand is guided and caressed, not so much an explosion, more a guided missile.

One of the key advantages of a forehand like McEnroe's (or Connors come to think of it) is there are no wild misses. Forehands without flip are simple and reliable and more accurate...just not so powerful...you can't have everything.