My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[bottle]

From INNER SLINGSHOT: THE KEY TO MODERN TENNIS

It is the last day of the year, and I am determined to finish this unfinishable book, and the Tennis Player bulletin page is down right now, at least on my computer, which means that I can’t get into the TP discussion boards. So here is the YouTube video that don_budge posted two days ago for his speed hand comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ywZ4b6vjFc

If you, reader, have easy access to this video right now, or to other pictures of Ben Hogan, or perhaps just remember the look of his golf swing even though you’re just a tennis player, you may note all the delayed sting in his, and McEnroe’s forehand strike.

Hips go ahead of shoulders, arm and wrist to create an inside out swing.

The hips simultaneously rotate and go out toward the target until one is finally prepared to uncock through the back of the ball.

Is this information transferable to tennis? Absolutely.

But it is dependent on continental grip.

Only with continental grip can a one-inch wrist explosion really work. With all other tennis grips the player is better off not using wrist for propulsion but rather for timing and to steer.

And if I’m repeating myself—good—repetition is good in tennis.

Basically, don_budge’s or Steve Navarro’s comparison is valid. But wherever there is a metaphor, as Robert Frost so tellingly argued, there is a place where it falls apart—one reason that everybody who plans on using language needs to study poems.

Here, the place where comparison erodes is pure opportunity for invention.

Many players, particularly elderly ones, would love to have a delicate, short backswing forehand as effective as McEnroe’s. He is at the time of this writing the top seniors player in the United States and in the world.

If one wanted to keep the same construction but add shock-and-awe, one could use a longer backswing, like Ben Hogan, and keep more releasing bend in arm right up to contact.

If one then followed this experiment to its logical extreme, one might backswing the racket all the way around one’s neck like Ellsworth Vines.

Or develop a huge starting loop containing all the same elements the way Tiny Tom Okker did.

[bottle]

Re-conceiving a Golf on Wheels Stroke

I don't think I'm ready to trust those tennis people who don't use their wrist in this attractive, propulsive way...to make generalities about the people who do.

Also, I'm bemused by people who worship kinetic chain without understanding that the links should be uneven.

The way that Ben Hogan divides a swing into two parts only-- hips and then all the rest-- ought to be terminally instructive for the jokers at cocktail parties.

A lot of kinetic chain may happen from the point that Hogan says, "Now hit the ball," but the hips already happened and are out of proportion to the rest.

Obviously they provide great power but also great form-- the whole inside out construction and nearly all of the substance of the stroke.

[don_budge]

In my Dream...an explanation to an older gentlemen.

Last night I had a dream and I was explaining the sensation of the continental forehand to an older gentlemen at the tennis club.

I told him...that the structure of the swing seemed to have a natural tendency to keep the ball to the right of me and to prevent it from missing to the left. In this manner it makes it much easier to go down the line aggressively and with less margin for error...at the same time it keeps my attack on the right hander's backhand side. It is much more effective in producing low angles as well. It is much more natural to hook the ball to the right and more natural to hit hard down the line without missing to the left. Keep in mind I am left handed.

I went on to explain that when attempting to go down the line with my "other" forehand my fear was to miss wide to the left and this caused me to make compensating moves which took away from the sureness and naturalness of my stroke. It seems that I was guarding against going to the left...especially from an off balance position. It seems to me that this is sort of natural sensation given the "open" structure of the wrist in the more laid back position. If caught with the wrist slightly open, the contact is going to be late. With the continental I don't have this feeling of uncertainty and consequently if I miss, more often than not it is by inches.

Just a thought...from my actual dream. From the "Weird Scenes From Inside the Gold Mine"...Jim Morrison and The Doors.

[don_budge]

don_budge, bottle and Tilden...the John McEnroe continental gripped forehand

FH Center Side1- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterSide1.mov

on a ball hit directly at mcenroe...he back steps himself into position with no less than 5 small steps into perfect alignment to hit a closed stance forehand...shoulders, racquet and feet in 3 neat lines ready to go forwards...swing initiated with the lower body, feet, legs and then the hips...working its way up to the shoulders as indicated by both hands moving in the same direction at the same speed...at the same time. all of the moving parts kept neatly in the same plane. left shoulder driving into the ball with minimal stretch shortening in the wrist action. but even though this is minimal movement and barely detectable at full speed...it is delivering the payload in a perhaps more efficient use of motion. this accounts for his accuracy, power and deception.

FH Center Side 2- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...enterSide2.mov

on a ball hit slightly to his left...he again positions himself with 5 small steps...notice the backswing and how small a distance his left hand actually has to travel to get in position to swing...the hand is definitely leading the racquet head, butt first to the ball...contact perhaps even or even slightly behind leading hip. impressive use of body once again to encourage a free swinging arm throughout the entire swing as indicated by the full follow through with the hand finishing shoulder high. the arc of his swing tends to be from the waist at the initiation of the forwards movement and depending upon the height of the ball the head drops slightly below the ball...the hand generally finishes in the shoulder height area.

More food for thought...as my dear old Coach Sherman Collins used to say. I can still hear his voice in my ear...I wished that I had listened a bit more closely way back when.

But when we watch the John McEnroe forehand in video, slowing it down, stopping it, etc., we see that his arm has gotten straight before any of the forward swing.

John...aka bottle. Please have a look here and your point about the straightening of the arm is particularly interesting because I never pay much regard to what is happening mechanically between the start to the finish...figuring that all motion is a product of the sequence events from the beginning to the follow through. In the video clip below it appears that structurally the arm remains pretty much intact throughout the swing and it appears that there is just a bit of play in that arm at the elbow...and except for perhaps that little bit of lag in the wrist that occurs in the beginning of his forwards motion that is so easily overlooked if you are looking for the hyperextended lag in the modern swing. By the time that the racquet head is catching up to the hand at impact of the ball...there you have the one inch punch effect ala Bruce Lee. But once that bit of action has taken place take a look in slow motion as to what is occurring in the structure of the arm throughout the follow through which is over when the hand reaches about shoulder high. Not much. Like the backhand this is not a long swing by modern standards but it is a free swinging arm nevertheless. Listen to the sound that McEnroe makes when he is making contact...that is quite a concentrated effort. That is the sensation that I get when making contact as well...that of a concentrated effort. Like when you punch something.

From Bill Tilden's book..."How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to tactics and technique" (page 37).

"This grip which is also known as the Eastern Service grip or the Universal grip, is used for the chop and slice stroke, the volley, the smash, the lob and the drop shot...as well as for the slice, twist and cannonball service. It should never be used to drive, particularly off the forehand, where it lacks power. Halfway between the handle positions of the forehand and backhand grips is a slanting surface of the handle. Starting from the original forehand key position, move the hand an eighth circle turn backward or counterclockwise (which is half of the way to the backhand grip), until the palm of the hand lies on this slanting surface of the handle. Then close the fingers firmly across the handle and depress the wrist making an angle with the handle of the racquet that will bring the head of the racquet above the wrist. The hand in position is not materially changed only eased between forehand and backhand."

Particularly interesting to note in the Tilden observation regarding the continental grip that he asserts that the racquet head should be above the wrist when clearly McEnroe is breaking this "law" as his wrist is clearly below the level of the hand...putting the shaft of the racquet in a similar position as the shaft of the golf club. This is the difference in striking the continental gripped forehand for power which Tilden asserts "should never" be done. But he did not take into consideration dropping the racquet head below the wrist which changes the structure of the wrist and the dynamics of the action through the hitting zone.

I wish that I could have that discussion with Tilden...maybe someday I will...in my dreams.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterSide2.mov

[bottle]

Neat: This Bidnis of Arm Straightening a Little

The first forehand clip you showed this time, Steve, does have arm straightening a little just before the wrist punch. So why not same thing on backhand? The backhands we're all looking at were filmed from behind or in front so we don't get many angles from which to see whether the premise is true.

But how often blind faith-- when it should and shouldn't-- happens! Usually, when it comes to something as subtle as wrist in a ground stroke one is better off just taking the plunge to go ahead and say (or do!) what one believes is happening.

You, Steve-- I assume it was you-- even took a poll on whether there was a flip in John McEnroe's forehand. And you won, 4-0 . One of the votes was mine, by the way.

But why was there the need for the poll? Because people seemed insecure and unsure. One of those people, though, might have been playing devil's advocate. You've smoked him out before.

I know I've said before that I was unsure about the ping-pong slam idea on the backhand side, wondered if maybe the martinet keeps his wrist supinated (curled sometime) as I see in one video of his lob.

I have a lot of questions in general about wrist in all the groundies that people discuss and then learn. Some really great tennis thinkers, e.g., talk about the wrist giving at contact, i.e., going backward to stay on the ball longer and to protect the arm the way soft strings also do.

And except for listening to myself talk to myself, I've never heard anybody, much less some seasoned teaching pro with the natural authority of dealing every day with all sorts of students, discuss ALL the wrist possibilities in the same take or paragraph. You could be the first, Steve!

Right now I'm thinking no wrist propulsion on western, semi-western, strong eastern, weak eastern, yes on John McEnroe's modified continental with big knuckle on pointy ridge. Am I right? If not, who is right?

On my Ziegenfuss I'm finally ready to abandon the left brain (over-organized)
scheme of arm first then body. I want a little loop and gradual straightening of arm (forward!) with wrist going backward all at the same time right to the end of the followthrough. That says wrist will hold the hand on ball for a micro-second longer.

The arm will be moving independently, just a bit, but the stroke will still be spring don't swing.

But that may be a weird and undesirable stroke for some.

To return to McEnroe: Hard to see the flip. Hard to see the arm straighten into the ball. Hard to see the wrist explosion. Is that right?

[tennis_chiro]

Here comes the wet blanket!!

This is an interesting discussion. I can't tell you how jealous I am of d_b's physical ability to still go out and test his hypotheses on the court. Got to be exciting. Gee, I just wish I could handle practicing the strokes I would teach myself today. I don't need to experiment. I know what I would like to develop.

But one thing I would not be trying to develop would be a wrist snap into the contact zone. The shape of the strokes on the pro level no doubt includes a "flip" and a "stretch-shortening cycle". But before you start running off to check which grip is going to potentiate a more effective wrist action into the contact zone, let's think about a couple of simple facts. And remember that the golf ball is stationary. The tennis ball is not, at least not in anything except the serve and usually not even there.

You may want to look at these two links to pdf's:

Wikipedia on Response Time (mental chronometry):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry

Paper from a British Ph.D. on Reaction Times:
"Thus there are two new reaction times here: 1) very slow, involved in the learning process or, in other words, learning a sequence, and 2) very quick (to instantaneous), involved in learned sequences."

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/ReactionTimes.htm

The Wikipedia piece (obviously not admissible in any academic environment but I hope it serves its purpose here) points out "The mean reaction times for sprinters at the Beijing Olympics were 166 ms for males and 189 ms for females, but in one out of 1,000 starts they can achieve 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively". In other words, one in a 1000 can demonstrate a Reaction Time in simple terms APPROACHING 1/10 of a second (read more than).

Let's see: 1/10th of a second; that's about 25/250ths of a second; actually, it works out to a little more than 27/250ths of a second; for 1 in a thousand.

We have 4/1000ths or 1/250th of a second when we are going to be in contact with the ball. I'm just guessing here, but I imagine whatever direction the ball is going to go is 70-80% determined in the first 2 of those 4 1000s of a second. We can screw it up or maybe add a little momentum in those last 2. That means that if we are snapping the wrist and effectively changing the orientation of the racket face to the ball at any time during the contact zone, we have to time it correctly to 1/500th of a second.

Now, let's see. If I assume I am one in a thousand (obviously), then all I have to do is time the wrist snap to 1/500th of a second. And my reaction time is an exceptional 54 500ths of a second. (Hey, Bottle, can you help me out on my syntax of 1/500th, one five-hundreth, etc. I don't think it is in Strunk and White, except for "do not take shortcuts at the cost of clarity"!)

So if my timing is off by 1/54th of the total length of my reaction time, I miss.

No. I don't think so. I want a swing that presents the racket face to the ball in a constant alignment/orientation/relationship through an area of the contact/hitting zone that is much longer than the actual distance through which the strings will actually be touching the ball. As it is, impact is going to change that orientation and only the proper development of momentum of the head of the racket will enable the racket to go through that zone without being misdirected by that impact. The job of my wrist is to do the best it can to maintain that constant orientation. If that orientation were to be changing as going from slightly closed to a little less closed, that change would have to be regulated by the wrist to be happening constantly over the course of the contact/hitting zone. In other words, if I can swing fast enough to keep the strings touching the ball for 4 to 6 inches, I want the racket face to have a constant orientation to the ball achieving my desired trajectory for at least 2 to 3 times that long.

All this talk of the flip potentiating Mac's forehand and backhand is very interesting, but the key to the consistency and accuracy of those strokes is how well Mac is able to maintain the racket-face/ball relationship/orientation through the hitting zone. The stretch-shortening cycle gives the hitting structure additional power and resilience as the body/shoulder/hips/arm swing the racket through the hitting zone.

But, please, don't start thinking you are going to snap your wrist into the hiting zone. I don't care if you use a continental, Eastern or full Western grip; good players are not snapping the wrist into the contact zone. Perhaps I am reading this thread incorrectly, but you are at least treading awfully close to advocating something that is simply impossible.

If the wrist is moving then the contact point/racket face/ball relationship is changine very rapidly. That change would have to be timed to 1/500th of a second. That's why my smart ass juniors with wristy forehands suddenly hit the ball so much better when I strap a Wrist-Assist or Greg Norman's Secret onto their wrists.

If you are going to try to accomodate a continental grip to a heavy topspin forehand by snapping or just manipulating the position of the wrist, good luck. You CAN hit topspin with a continental grip, but it is much better for hitting a relatively flat ball.

Just remember: fast reaction time = 109 thousanths of a second. Dwell time of the ball touching the strings = 4 thousanths of a second.

Looking forward to getting a few comments for this post,

don

[stotty]

Interesting

Interesting...either you're wrong or I've completely misunderstood something all my life (wouldn't be the first time). I'm gonna have to read the articles and digest the whole theory...will post later.

First thoughts....not sure micro timing is such a big issue. Baseball looks more difficult than tennis in the hand-to-eye/split-second timing issue...just thinking off my head here.

Second thoughts...my wrist is passive and relaxed when I hit my groundies. I don't pump...maybe the wrist is doing less than I thought.

Really going to have to think about this one...

[10splayer]

Can someone download a McEnroe (from behind) and Fed forehand for me...Not sure how to do it. I certainly have a few thoughts. Especially after a few of Bottle and DB's post.

[bottle]

As usual, I like tennis_chiro's post very much. And see it as relating directly to the set of fallback ground strokes I'm marshaling for my six to eight weeks return to tennis from calf strain.

At the same time however I'm a romantic, which means that I'll always organize on some peak experience and retain a place in my life for such sheer craziness as writing non-formulaic "serious" American fiction in 2013 .

The peak experience: The only formal, professional golf lesson in my life shortly after which I almost won a very populous long-drive contest and would have won it if my father hadn't been coming along for his second try.

Despite there being countless golf lifers milling about, I hit the ball well-- never better before or since-- and it was all about a Ben Hogan like forward pivot of the hips while holding everything else back and then just uncorking with all the other elements common to any sport's swing.

The reason I'm not more scared of tennis_chiro's impeccable math is that I have no idea whether the delayed uncocking occurred right on the ball or before some kind of blending into the gentle arc of overall swing.

Perhaps this uncertainty is insufficient foundation for a radically new tennis game at the age of seventy-three.

In any case, we all need the sobriety as well as inspiration that only great teachers can provide.

[don_budge]

Tennis is not a Rocket Science...it is more of a metaphysical play on words...

...to describe an artistic form of exercise.

This is an interesting discussion. I can't tell you how jealous I am of d_b's physical ability to still go out and test his hypotheses on the court. Got to be exciting.

But, please, don't start thinking you are going to snap your wrist into the hiting zone. I don't care if you use a continental, Eastern or full Western grip; good players are not snapping the wrist into the contact zone. Perhaps I am reading this thread incorrectly, but you are at least treading awfully close to advocating something that is simply impossible.

don

Thanks for your comments and for reading this thesis on the John McEnroe Groundstroke game. Ok...it's not technically a thesis...what it is, is only my thoughts on the John McEnroe Forehand and Backhand. Not exactly rocket science and I haven't actually spotted any numbers to corroborate my thoughts...nor do I intend to. By the way...I used to be an old auto industry quality control middle management guy and the only thing that I will say about your numbers is that they are "fudged"...at best.

But this has been an extraordinarily exciting process for me...much as all of my experience has been here on the forum. My education here on the forum has been very fulfilling in the sense that I have had the opportunity to study as only a good tennis_student would under the tutelage of guys like yourself and all of the other contributors to this cyberspace including John and his writers. This study of McEnroe and his continental strokes has been one of the most enlightening experiences of my tennis life...my tennis experience. I feel like I have discovered the wheel...like quite a few of the modern day gurus like to claim to have done. But I certainly won't present myself as an originator and promise to keep my ego in check...everything that I write has been written before. I am sure. The Beatles, Ferdinand Celine or Bill Tilden. I borrow. I steal. I freely admit it. I only connect the dots...the three little dots.

The one most exciting aspect of this exercise for me has been one of discovery...and it lies in the realm of teaching. Both of my parents were teachers and they were very critical of the teaching profession and I guess that I am too. But I have found that I have the capacity to teach myself. In one month I went from playing the modern game of tennis with a classic background to playing a full blown continental gripped tennis game with some very exciting and very enlightening results. In this regard I have succeeded in surpassing my own expectations of myself. That's a good trick, I think. I am only documenting my process from the beginning to the end in this matter. I just wish that I was there with you in sunny California at your club where we could actually sit down and I could share with you what I have learned first hand. But for now...this will have to do.

With regards to your comments, I have just a couple of points and these points are not in my defense or in defense of anything that you or anyone else may perceive that I am "advocating". This is my first point...I am not advocating anything at all. I am merely trying to document my live experience of researching the continental base gripped tennis game. If I am not purely objective in my writing and appear to be excited with the results that is because I am. The only thing that I am possibly advocating is that tennis professionals, tennis teachers, tennis coaches and tennis_students continue to explore and learn more about the game of tennis...particularly what I like to refer to as classic tennis. The well is deep. I want teachers and students to have more and more respect for the game and the knowledge that is available to them. That is what I am advocating. I am advocating freedom of speech...and freedom of thought. Plus the duty to not only profess to be a student of the game but to actually be a student of the game.

The only other point that I wish to make with regard to your comments is regarding the word or the idea that the wrist is snapping in any way shape or form. I did a search on my thread and used the words snap and snapping in my search and it came down to your comments where you had used that word 6 times. I am certainly not advocating snapping the wrist at anything...and particularly not a forehand. I never once used the word snap or snapping. I am a fundamentalist when it comes to teaching tennis...and golf. That much speaks for itself. I have always thought of the wrist as a hinge...the most important joint of the human body when it comes to tennis players or golfers.

This is only my dream... and my hallucination. That is all that it is. It is just a little "Weird Scene Inside the Gold Mine" of my imagination. Tennis is sort of a weird science...isn't it? Just ask Brian Gordon...or John McEnroe. Just compare their answers. Go ask Alice for all that matters. When she's ten feet tall. Ask the stars. The point is that it doesn't matter much who you ask...everyone has their own ideas. These are my thoughts...for what they are worth. If someone is offended or does not believe in what I am writing about, that is their problem and not mine...they will have to find their own way home at night and I am sure they will. My hope is that I am sharing something with all of the teachers and students that frequent this quaint little space that will give them some food for thought. That's all. I only want to make people think and to make good, sound decisions. On the tennis court and in life.

Besides it is only my therapy. It takes my mind off of my troubles. Let's face it, we all have our troubles or else we wouldn't be alive. Life is no bed of roses and guess what...tennis isn't either. We are all a mixed bag in one way or another...aren't we? Otherwise it's easy to sit around and feel sorry for myself. But this keeps me busy. Out of trouble. Who knows...with all of the weird energy I might find myself with the urge to go out and knock off a party store late at night. Just kidding...they don't really have party stores here in Sweden.

I bring my racquet home at night...just to fondle it, to feel it, the comfort of the continental grip and what it does for my hand, my wrist and my entire being. It gives me hope somehow...of a brighter tomorrow. The hope that I can pass it along...pass it forwards so to speak. On top of that...I feel that I am really on to something of great interest in the Kingdom of Tennis. Something from the past and how it possibly relates to the present and quite possibly even the future. I only want to share...that is the truth. I am not interested in money, in fame...or in pretty intelligent women. Ok...two out of three.

[don_budge]

The Dream needs a Guinea Pig...

The next step in my little dream or hallucination or whatever you wish to call it...is to find a suitable "Guinea Pig". The specimen that I would seek would ideally be a teaching professional, thoughtful and intelligent, a bit taller than average, possess a great service motion, use a one hand backhand, have a creative and innovative mind...and perhaps most importantly...have a nose for the net. This specimen should be a true student of the game. He should be old enough to have learned a bit about teaching but young enough to play a good competitive game. He should be the kind of kid that used to ride his bicycle to the court every single day...because he wanted to and nobody had to tell him to do it. I would hope that he would be fearless and in touch with his "inner warrior" and unafraid to challenge conventional wisdom. That would be the prototype that I would search for.

Does anyone know anyone that fits this description? I think that I do. He posts on this site occasionally. Can you spell Kyle LaCroix? Keep in mind...this is only a dream and I am not even suggesting, not even of thinking...just forget that I mentioned it.

[10splayer]

The first forehand clip you showed this time, Steve, does have arm straightening a little just before the wrist punch. So why not same thing on backhand? The backhands we're all looking at were filmed from behind or in front so we don't get many angles from which to see whether the premise is true.

But how often blind faith-- when it should and shouldn't-- happens! Usually, when it comes to something as subtle as wrist in a ground stroke one is better off just taking the plunge to go ahead and say (or do!) what one believes is happening.

You, Steve-- I assume it was you-- even took a poll on whether there was a flip in John McEnroe's forehand. And you won, 4-0 . One of the votes was mine, by the way.

But why was there the need for the poll? Because people seemed insecure and unsure. One of those people, though, might have been playing devil's advocate. You've smoked him out before.

I know I've said before that I was unsure about the ping-pong slam idea on the backhand side, wondered if maybe the martinet keeps his wrist supinated (curled sometime) as I see in one video of his lob.

I have a lot of questions in general about wrist in all the groundies that people discuss and then learn. Some really great tennis thinkers, e.g., talk about the wrist giving at contact, i.e., going backward to stay on the ball longer and to protect the arm the way soft strings also do.

And except for listening to myself talk to myself, I've never heard anybody, much less some seasoned teaching pro with the natural authority of dealing every day with all sorts of students, discuss ALL the wrist possibilities in the same take or paragraph. You could be the first, Steve!

Right now I'm thinking no wrist propulsion on western, semi-western, strong eastern, weak eastern, yes on John McEnroe's modified continental with big knuckle on pointy ridge. Am I right? If not, who is right?

On my Ziegenfuss I'm finally ready to abandon the left brain (over-organized)
scheme of arm first then body. I want a little loop and gradual straightening of arm (forward!) with wrist going backward all at the same time right to the end of the followthrough. That says wrist will hold the hand on ball for a micro-second longer.

The arm will be moving independently, just a bit, but the stroke will still be spring don't swing.

But that may be a weird and undesirable stroke for some.

To return to McEnroe: Hard to see the flip. Hard to see the arm straighten into the ball. Hard to see the wrist explosion. Is that right?

I can only assume this was for my benefit. I can assure you I am neither insecure on unsure of the subject matter. The flip in the McEnroe forehand? There isn't one, zero, zilch, nada......IF we can agree on the definition of the "flip"

In layman's terms, it is a rather radical change in the hitting arm structure from backswing to forward swing. A rotation/counter rotation move that balistically loads the shoulder/arm and typically induces a stretch reflex....It is a calculated/taught method, and it is used in teaching circles all over the
world. But I know that doesn't mean anything to you or DB.


Slow click on a Fed forehand and you will see a number of things that illustrate this point. As the hands break apart the hitting arm/hand start pronating, or rotatating internally. Take a look at the thumb and notice how it turns down throughout the backswing. At the bottom of the downswing (in the transition stage) teh face of teh racquet is completely closed. (that's saying something given his eastern grip) TTry and achieve this postion with said grip, and you will find how internally rotated the arm has to be.......This rotation in the backswing, FORCES a counter rotation in the transition/forward swing....This is the mythical flip....


Now, look at any McEnroe video from behind and you will see that the hitting arm structure is already set up at the end of the backswing. That is, the arm is already rotated externally, butt cap forward, etc. What's he going to flip? The answer is, nothing. His arm structure is already set up.

[stotty]

Not much flip if you ask me...

I didn't vote because the options were black and white...i.e. either he flips or he doesn't. For me he does but in a very minor way. You just have to look at the clips to see that any kind of flip from Mac is barely perceptible much of the time, which is why I started the thread Is McEnroe Flipless...to see what others thoughts...certainly led to quite a debate.

I agree with 10splayer that Mac's arm is set up at the end of the backswing and stays virtually set (fixed almost) right the way through much of the forward swing...which is yet another factor in Mac's distintive style...makes his arm looked fixed/locked as he swings. I certainly wouldn't call Mac's strokes pretty.

I do feel that if the wrist breaks back even a little then it offers something...some minor flip at least.

Interesting 10splayer's observation on Federer's dog pat technique at the bottom of the downswing. I always remember this article on Tennisplayer that dealt with extreme dog pat technique. I had a kid with a similar problem to Amber...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/your_strokes/2009/amber_park_forehand/amber_park_forehand.html

[10splayer]

I didn't vote because the options were black and white...i.e. either he flips or he doesn't. For me he does but in a very minor way. You just have to look at the clips to see that any kind of flip from Mac is barely perceptible much of the time, which is why I started the thread Is McEnroe Flipless...to see what others thoughts...certainly led to quite a debate.

I agree with 10splayer that Mac's arm is set up at the end of the backswing and stays virtually set (fixed almost) right the way through much of the forward swing...which is yet another factor in Mac's distintive style...makes his arm looked fixed/locked as he swings. I certainly wouldn't call Mac's strokes pretty.

I do feel that if the wrist breaks back even a little then it offers something...some minor flip at least.

Interesting 10splayer's observation on Federer's dog pat technique at the bottom of the downswing. I always remember this article on Tennisplayer that dealt with extreme dog pat technique. I had a kid with a similar problem to Amber...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._forehand.html

Couple things if i may. There is always going to be a little "lay back" of the wrist (extension) as the racquet changes directions. (flip or non flip). In my mind, whether or not a player flips or doesn't flip (and to what degree) has to do with whether or not the arm rotates from backswing to forwards swing. Mc's doesn't at all. His swing most closely resembles a gate opening and closing.

Yeah, and Fed is an extreme example of a flip. To the naked eye, it would appear that the degree to which his arm changes (degree of rotation) in the transition, is substantial....

[bottle]

You beat me to the natural wrist uncock (in continental drives) which is based entirely on perfect set-up and delay. I've always heard that continental players use a little wrist. And that they are more talented. And I know they're pretty nifty. (I played one with about 800 trophies in his basement.)

Well, if they used wrist they almost surely cocked it first, probably while their hips were at work.

I agree with Steve that the present experiment isn't going to hurt anybody and would make them a lot more knowledgeable.

As for "flip," I think that term should be dictionary definition, as in a rose is a rose.

Now "mondo"-- that could be used in a more strictly defined, limited, denotive only and therefore more scientific, left brain way.

But I don't want to go back. One you go black you never go back.

P.S. I'm wondering if this discussion is maybe getting off track. The real provocation is the way John McEnroe cheats to backhand side, which is enabled by his weird forehand (far more gorgeous in my eyes than the huge Kid Gavilan mechanical loops of all the great players of the day).

When you play me you'll see my waiting position has racket pointed straight at the net sometimes and pointed straight at side fence sometimes. So you'll know immediately which mode I'll be in, but I don't care. Later down the road I might develop some switcheroos (when I'm 83).