My Thoughts on the McEnroe Forehand...

[don_budge]

From “The Classic Backhand: Karsten Popp” thread a couple of weeks ago...

...this is what I wrote of my observations of Karsten’s backhand.

The consistency is incredible isn’t it? That consistency and the uncanny ability to place the ball precisely where he wants to at a variety of angles, speeds and spins with only a virtually undetectable variance in his mechanics. Given that the game of tennis is really about maneuvering your opponent into an off balanced position in order for you to deliver the knockout, this backhand is designed for just that. He can reach any part of the court with this backhand and your reference to laser like precision is no exaggeration...he can lay it on the lines or place it deep near the baseline into the corners, while at the same time he can access the forecourt of his opponent. Incredible overt power is not his forte...it is subtle deception that seals the deal. He is sneaky powerful though...or as you put it he operates with "effortless power". This is what makes this swing technically aesthetically beautiful but at the same time enables him to apply a severe tactical lesson too. You don’t think that the ball has so much on it until it is right up on you and then it seems to get there in a hurry.

I have been playing around with the John McEnroe forehand for a couple of weeks and finally this past week I have put it into play. I am so happy with the results I wonder if I will ever go back to my old “modern” forehand. The above comments about Karsten’s backhand can be substitute for my feeling now about my forehand.

I made the commitment to the continental forehand in practice against my best juniors this week and then I took on my best player and really sliced him up real nice...as Scarface might say. It’s funny because his topspin and power game was starting to overwhelm me but I totally had him on his heels yesterday and totally controlled him with variation of spin, placement and depth. I am super excited about the versatility in my forehand repertoire now...looking forward to practicing like I did when I was young. So many years ago. I did the same with another practice partner today. Now I have a little more appreciation for bottle’s thing over there in the “New Years Serve Thread”...giving in to some experimentation. I think this one is here to stay...the biggest asset in playing this was my ability to exploit the right handed backhand. Once I match the backhand to the forehand...Lookout!!!

More thoughts to follow regarding technique, tactics and comments from posters in this thread and other comments about McEnroe or his technique. It’s interesting how everyone is so sold on the new and modern tennis and that there is now only one way to play this game. All topspin...all of the time. I don’t think that this is the case at all. It’s more likely that the coaching mindset has been hijacked into believing such nonsense and all court tennis has been relegated to the dust bin. Well...these are the days aren’t they? Of group think. Of mind control. Of political correctness. Thinking otherwise is a dangerous thing...isn’t it? Narrow minds would amuse me...if they were not so dangerous! Robots!

McEnroe’s groundstrokes are not a legitimate way to play the game?...they stood up to the ruthless onslaught of Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZgqB_BVQI

Then there was the 17 year old upstart Mats Wilander French Open Champion playing with some graphite racquet that was x % larger than the “Macsply” Dunlop Fort in this great Davis Cup match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaD5j...49F5AD90D83435

[stotty]

Hmm..

Inquisitive minds...


Like don_budge, since the two McEnroe threads were posted I've found it irresistible to play around with the Mac forehand in my own game. I've been doing so for about a week....now I know what it's like to be bottle.

I've been trying an out an out mimic just to get an idea what it's like to hit forehands like Mac. Like I said earlier, Mac is the only really unique player I can think of. He's original. Originality should in theory be impossible as we are creatures that mimic and learn from each other...there's no other way. But when Mac was growing up (and the generations before), no top players had a stroke-style remotely similar to McEnroe's...or none that I know of. So stylistically at least, Mac is like no one else past or present. He is the best grass court player (and I'm talking about proper grass) ever. Tactically, on grass at least, he made virtually no errors of judgement.

Anyway when I tried to mimic Mac's forehand I found I was often fractionally late on the ball. I found it hard not to be late when under duress in quicker rallies. For me it takes longer to wield the racket when trying to keep a straight-ish arm like Mac has. I did find the ball "carried" on the strings a little and it's easy to see how contributive an influence being flipless may have been to his control....when you factor in the innate feel and talent he has. The thing is it (the direct mimic that is) can only really work for Mac. You have to have the god like control and feel for it to really work in the same way it did with him. For the rest of us, we look like a low grade club when we try to copy it.

Going back to Mac's originality, it is conceivable that he was influenced stylistically by a much lesser player than a world-class player. I was influenced by the top players at my club as I was growing up, not always the very top players. You have no judgement about technique when you are young, so look for styles that impress you...you go for looks. It's feasible Mac did a similar thing...what a thought.

[don_budge]

Mac is a clone of Laver...

Going back to Mac's originality, it is conceivable that he was influenced stylistically by a much lesser player than a world-class player. I was influenced by the top players at my club as I was growing up, not always the very top players. You have no judgement about technique when you are young, so look for styles that impress you...you go for looks. It's feasible Mac did a similar thing...what a thought.

As it turns out it is not so unusual afterall...considering his idol was one Rodney Laver...the great Aussie from the Harry Hopman school of tennis tradition.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/rodlaver/rodlaver_sa.html?RLFHShortCourtLevelFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/rodlaver/rodlaver_sa.html?RLFHCourtLevelFront.mov

He's said that his model was Laver.

[stotty]

He's said that his model was Laver.

Odd that, Mac looks nothing like Laver. Then again, neither did Sampras, who also supposedly modelled himself on Laver. Though, I feel Sampras curiously concocted Laver as his playing model, as Laver was way before him and footage back then was very limited of Laver to be able to model himself on. There was no Internet to speak of when Sampras was in his teens...no Youtube...just limited VHS video clips...and why have a model who pre dates your childhood and formative tennis years...unusual...always thought it was strange.

Sometimes we don't like to admit who our "true" influences/models because we don't want to give that certain person the credit. But Sampras's model for sure wasn't Laver...just couldn't have been. Laver was almost finished even in Mac's tender youth...and Sampras is 12 years younger.

[bottle]

Utterly fascinating. I'm especially interested that don_budge has done well with his Johnny Mac imitation against a tough young Swede or two. And his descriptions of the McEnroe forehands, each with a clip, are so vivid that I'm completely tempted to revive my own one-year-long experiment, without, of course, giving up on my other discoveries, more recent, all with a 3.5 Federer imitation grip.

Good information like this is what makes me want to experiment. And I've developed a healthy gimpy-grump contempt for all those WHO WOULD RATHER DIE THAN EVER EXPERIMENT IN ANYTHING.

Can you hit hard with this stroke, Steve? I got everything back, against even very good players, but I couldn't hit particularly hard. But I obviously play at a lower level.

So I want to know what you think goes into a hard McEnroe forehand. And I don't accept that only he can hit one.

We come back to "genius" and what that word means. Goethe is the one I know who wrote most on genius while being one. He stressed the simplicity in genius.

Simplicity? Then anyone could do it. If they wanted.

But they don't.

Why not?

Utter dopes!!!!

[don_budge]

The John McEnroe forehand as viewed as a LOB...

LOB

FH Lob CourtLevel Rear- http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelRear.mov

from by now the all too familiar mcenroe ready position with the racquet face clearly cheating well towards the backhand side...johnny boy turns his shoulders with the racquet face/head still lagging behind as it customarily does in his backswing. what does this tell you about the tension in his wrist as the racquet swings itself back to its temporary resting spot in position to go forwards? answer: it is relaxed but not limp. everything about the preparation for this shot looks identical or nearly identical to every other shot that he has hit in this review...or is the racquet face slightly more closed in the ready to go forwards position? here mcenroe gives it all away...the secret to his technique on the mcenroe forehand...when starting forwards for this lob there is what our very own tennis_chiro will call a “gravity drop” where the racquet head is going to free fall to a position conspicuously below the ball and with a free swinging arm that is moving largely on account and in response to the cues from the mcenroe lower body, hips and then shoulders. lastly...it is the free swinging arm and then “magically” it is the wrist...the subtle flex and hinging that makes the racquet head slice through the path of the ball like a warm knife through soft butter. on this shot and all of the preceding shots there is a red thread and it all culminates in the beauty of the subtle and flexing movement of the racquet face through the path of the ball...it is the way that the continental grip acts as a passive hinge. there is really no other way to describe it.

[don_budge]

Can you hit hard with this stroke? ...bottle asks.

Can you hit hard with this stroke, Steve? I got everything back, against even very good players, but I couldn't hit particularly hard. But I obviously play at a lower level.

So I want to know what you think goes into a hard McEnroe forehand. And I don't accept that only he can hit one.

Simplicity? Then anyone could do it. If they wanted. But they don't.

Why not? Utter dopes!!!!

In the art of conversation you will find that the true artist is the one who is asking the astute question. He is not there to expound upon what he knows...he is there to suck the last bit of information that he can out of you. bottle...is an artist. He paints with his words. He gets what he wants with his questions. Keep up the BAD work...bottle!

But yes...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterCourtLevelRear3.mov

...is this hard enough for you? But what is speed...without control?

Here is McEnroe pounding one down the line at chest level. So much for the theory that the continental is only effective on low balls. Watch the Bad One at work. This ball from his opponent is coming from a height of upwards of two meters over the net probably with gobs of topspin. What is the McEnroe reply? He takes the ball somewhat on the rise and shoots a dart up the line. Very exquisite stuff I would say.

Take a look at the mechanics...you have by now looked at them a million times if you have followed my thoughts...word for word. Take your time and review every intimate detail of the swing of McEnroe. Stop at every frame and notice every nuance. From the classic McEnroe ready position...the familiar racquet head lagging behind on the backswing...but what's this? At the position where he has completed his backswing and he is ready to go forwards his racquet head is shoulder high and slightly above his hand and all of his weight is squarely on his back foot. This weight placement is a big key.

With a twist of the hips and a rotation of the shoulders he is transferring all of his weight forwards and with a subtle lag in the continental wristed stroke he takes this high spinning ball and hits it squarely on the screws and it looks like a clean winner. All of the homage being paid to the...what the hell are they calling it these days...stretch bla bla bla...and it appears to me that there is some sort of multiplier effect in the subtle lagging of the racquet head in McEnroe's continental action that drives the racquet head through the path of this ball...sans the gobs of the revered topspin of modern day tennis.

The key is one of patience. When you are hitting the continental forehand you must wait until the wrist engages through the mechanisms of the other actions of the body...feet, legs, hips, shoulders, swinging arm and then lastly and finally the wrist exploding into the ball. It is the one inch punch effect that tennis_chiro has mentioned on more than one occasion...with 90% percent of the power coming from the transfer of weight from that firmly planted back foot into the swinging arm and finally climaxing through the conduit of the wrist.

One must wait...which is of course a virtue as in patience...but there is so little virtue left in the world today. It is no wonder that the continental gripped forehand cannot be contemplated as effective...people want "shock and awe" with "gigabytes".

Just keep that wrist intact until every thing is swinging and let it go just before impact. Yes...you can hit it hard. So can I. But the beauty of this swing is that you can hit any which way you want with only subtle variation in your mechanics.

Now watch that clip about twenty times in a row without pausing. Listen to the sound of the ball on the strings. Is that hard enough for you?

[10splayer]

...this is what I wrote of my observations of Karsten’s backhand.



I have been playing around with the John McEnroe forehand for a couple of weeks and finally this past week I have put it into play. I am so happy with the results I wonder if I will ever go back to my old “modern” forehand. The above comments about Karsten’s backhand can be substitute for my feeling now about my forehand.

I made the commitment to the continental forehand in practice against my best juniors this week and then I took on my best player and really sliced him up real nice...as Scarface might say. It’s funny because his topspin and power game was starting to overwhelm me but I totally had him on his heels yesterday and totally controlled him with variation of spin, placement and depth. I am super excited about the versatility in my forehand repertoire now...looking forward to practicing like I did when I was young. So many years ago. I did the same with another practice partner today. Now I have a little more appreciation for bottle’s thing over there in the “New Years Serve Thread”...giving in to some experimentation. I think this one is here to stay...the biggest asset in playing this was my ability to exploit the right handed backhand. Once I match the backhand to the forehand...Lookout!!!

More thoughts to follow regarding technique, tactics and comments from posters in this thread and other comments about McEnroe or his technique. It’s interesting how everyone is so sold on the new and modern tennis and that there is now only one way to play this game. All topspin...all of the time. I don’t think

 that this is the case at all.  It’s more likely that the coaching mindset has been hijacked into believing such nonsense and all court tennis has been relegated to the dust bin.  Well...these are the days aren’t they?  Of group think.  Of mind control.  Of political correctness.  Thinking otherwise is a dangerous thing...isn’t it?  Narrow minds would amuse me...if they were not so dangerous!  Robots!

McEnroe’s groundstrokes are not a legitimate way to play the game?...they stood up to the ruthless onslaught of Jimmy Connors and Ivan Lendl back in the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZgqB_BVQI

Then there was the 17 year old upstart Mats Wilander French Open Champion playing with some graphite racquet that was x % larger than the “Macsply” Dunlop Fort in this great Davis Cup match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaD5j...49F5AD90D83435

It would appear that this comment was directed towards me and those who advocate against the continental....We'll have to agree to disagree. Can't think of any developmental coach in the last 25 years in the trenches who actually advocate/teach this grip on the forehand. Are we all brainwashed? or is there a reason for it.

[don_budge]

Harry Hopman and John McEnroe...

Going back to Mac's originality, it is conceivable that he was influenced stylistically by a much lesser player than a world-class player. I was influenced by the top players at my club as I was growing up, not always the very top players. You have no judgement about technique when you are young, so look for styles that impress you...you go for looks. It's feasible Mac did a similar thing...what a thought.

As it turns out it is not so unusual afterall...considering his idol was one Rodney Laver...the great Aussie from the Harry Hopman school of tennis tradition.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/rodlaver/rodlaver_sa.html?RLFHShortCourtLevelFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/rodlaver/rodlaver_sa.html?RLFHCourtLevelFront.mov

Another thing that comes to mind is that I believe Harry Hopman the legendary Australian tennis coach may have actually had some influence on the McEnroe game as I believe that he may of had something to do with an outfit at the Port Washington Tennis Academy. I think that tennis_chiro could shed some light on this.

http://www.bardmoortennisacademy.com/?section=tennis-legacy

It looks like good old "Hop" is using a continental forehand grip.

[don_budge]

"stroke's" comment from the Karsten Popp classic backhand thread...

I like what Don Budge pointed out about Karsten standing up on the baseline and refusing to budge, which his basically continental, old school style allow him to so. Certainly no extreme grips and spin here, which makes the game a lot easier to play as one ages. As also has been pointed out by a couple of posters, Karsten's grip structure and style resembles McEnroe, who appears to be the greatest over 50 player ever. McEnroe's grip structure, and resulting style of play, is to me the ultimate role model for aging players.

I think you are making a very good point here for the aging tennis player. The difficulty that I have these days in my golden years with these young whipper snappers is the question of preparation. Split seconds add up when you are trying to turn the mass of your body and at the same time trying to make some massive backward motion with your backswing.

If you look at McEnroe's hand the distance that it covers by going directly back into position to go forwards is much less than say a Federer backswing. Then there is the question of changing grips for a drive backhand from a strong gripped forehand. Now you have a double indemnity...movement to the ball and at the same time trying to find the proper grip. Using one grip eliminates this variable in the equation. Time saver!

I have found too that it is possible to hug the baseline and go toe to toe with the heavy topspin and put these players back on their heels "Mac Style". Shooting darts back on the high looping balls and the high looping backswings is as good an answer to making up a few years that I can think or. Excellent point...stroke!

Economy of motion for the aging...why not for the young at heart too?

[stotty]

Continental Mac

Another thing that comes to mind is that I believe Harry Hopman the legendary Australian tennis coach may have actually had some influence on the McEnroe game as I believe that he may of had something to do with an outfit at the Port Washington Tennis Academy. I think that tennis_chiro could shed some light on this.

http://www.bardmoortennisacademy.com/?section=tennis-legacy

It looks like good old "Hop" is using a continental forehand grip.

This really is a great thread. For me it's not the continental grip that makes Mac's forehand shot so unusual, unique. What gives it weird and incredibly distinctive look is it's lack of lay back in the wrist...it's responsible for so much. If he broke the wrist back even a litte more then it would start to look a little more like Laver's.

We normally associate very talented players as being incredibly good wrist snappers, like Nastase...but with McEnroe it's all about the hands...incredible hands....the best in the business...the best ever.

I'm on the same page as 10splayer regarding the grip. While it is possible to get good flip with a continental if you try, it is less natural and the wrist never bends back as much as with more extreme grips, where it's hard NOT to flip.

Forehands these days are far better than they were in the classic era. For me that's down to the grip, and from there all the things that resulted from it. There is no going back...only forwards...but it's great fun to look back and study all the things that we missed and were right in front of our eyes all along.

Magnificent thread don_budge...great discussion and dialogue...Tennisplayer.net at it's best.

[don_budge]

Thanks John...

Tennisplayer.net at it's best.

This has been a lot of fun...Major Fun! A huge thanks to John. From the stroke archive birthed the basis of this study of the John McEnroe forehand.

The availability of 31 different variations of the John McEnroe forehand that you can pause and analyze at any given point countless times made this discussion possible.

So many ideas have popped up from previous discussions and previous articles...the website is a great tool for tennis coaches.

The best to you John for this Holiday Season...the very best to your family. That goes for the rest of you...we Motley Crew of tennis_coaches and tennis_students.

I am still not done with this one. More to follow.

[10splayer]

This really is a great thread. For me it's not the continental grip that makes Mac's forehand shot so unusual, unique. What gives it weird and incredibly distinctive look is it's lack of lay back in the wrist...it's responsible for so much. If he broke the wrist back even a litte more then it would start to look a little more like Laver's.

We normally associate very talented players as being incredibly good wrist snappers, like Nastase...but with McEnroe it's all about the hands...incredible hands....the best in the business...the best ever.

I'm on the same page as 10splayer regarding the grip. While it is possible to get good flip with a continental if you try, it is less natural and the wrist never bends back as much as with more extreme grips, where it's hard NOT to flip.

Forehands these days are far better than they were in the classic era. For me that's down to the grip, and from there all the things that resulted from it. There is no going back...only forwards...but it's great fun to look back and study all the things that we missed and were right in front of our eyes all along.

Magnificent thread don_budge...great discussion and dialogue...Tennisplayer.net at it's best.

This......agreed.

[10splayer]

I believe in good grips.....whether it be volleys, serve, or in this case the forehand.... The most important part of this is choosing a grip, that will allow a player to develop a game that suits them.. NOT limit there future options by allowing them to play with an extreme grip. Just as i would never let a kid start with a full western, like wise NEVER a continental. By allowing them to operate within these extreme grip parameters, you (as a teacher) have locked them into a certain style of play. (more or less) There is a huge grey area here, from which to choose from. And that's about all i have to say on the subject. Carry on.

[bottle]

Down and Up Backswing

Vertical backswing close to the body in the example of hard hitting you, Steve,
picked for me. Then M's forward swing, in pure contrast, is out to the side, which means he's getting good connection and clout from his erect, martinet-like body.

Now I'll look up the word "martinet": 1) a strict disciplinarian, 2) one who stresses a rigid adherence to the details of forms and methods. Derivation: a 17th century French army officer.

There must be some irony here someplace. In any case M's body is upright and rigid, like an imagined 17th century French army officer.

But he looks and is preternaturally relaxed. Does this mean he failed to suck in his gut?

I believe there are some interesting opposites to be discovered in this fellow, and in this shot.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterCourtLevelRear3.mov