Is McEnroe flipless?

[stotty]

Looking in the archive...(something I often do when the forum is having a quite spell)...I came across some clips of McEnroe's forehand. It is a strange shot by world-class standards. It's flipless...he steers it...no pulling forward of the racket head.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_forehand/mac_forehand.html?MacFHCenterCourtLevelRear2.mov

[bottle]

Great observation. Which makes me recall my experiments with that weak-gripped shot. As well as with Tom Okker type forehands, also with a weak (continental) grip, but that use loops of all sizes unlike McEnroe, who sweeps arm straight back.

More important, your observation gives some validation to players like me who are finally prepared to deep-six a few of their loops.

Wow-- McEnroe does that, and he was one of the greats, and it still works for him albeit with a different grip from my strong eastern.

The subject is simplicity, if you ask me, or effective "elegance," a word that Don Brosseau recently used.

[tennis_chiro]

Hint of a flip?

Never have really liked Mac's groundies that much, even when he was on top, but there is no question his ability to control the ball was superior to anyone he was playing against except maybe Borg. Even when he tried a shot that almost no one else would have even considered attempting, if he missed, he didn't miss by more than a few inches. At most, he would miss by a foot or a foot and a half if he tried something ridiculous. At least that was the way it seemed to me. Just think of the size of the misses we see routinely from the best players in the world today. Granted the ball is going a lot faster, but his control of the ball was phenomenal.

But as for his "flip": if you go back and check from 6 to 3 clicks before the contact point in this video clip, you can see, just barely, that he does, if fact, go through a stretch-shortening cycle. Moreover, the racket face is going from slightly closed to almost vertical. Certainly, nothing like we see in all the men's forehands today, but there is an element of it there. Makes me want to go look and see how much of that we can find in Borg, Connors, Vilas, Nastase, Laver and more conventional (at the time) strokers of the ball like Emerson, Stolle, Smith or the early groundstoke pounders of the time like Richey, Solomon or Dibbs. Even Newcombe was considered to have a great forehand at the time. I wonder where he is on this spectrum. I'll leave it to you guys to find the clips.

I got to practice with Vitas a little bit from about 1971 to 1973 when he was still a teenager and I watched him play in some local men's Open events. Before he turned pro, his forehand was flatter than it became as a pro. I'm not sure I was ever so wonderstruck watching any other stroke as I was watching Gerulaitis hit that forehand. He played a doubles tournament with a friend of mine, Harold Mollin, and he had hurt his knee. So whenever he touched the ball, he just hit a winner with his forehand. Probably was only 70 or 80 mph, but he seemed to be able to hit a dime on the court, about a foot or two from the baseline and wherever you weren't. I'd love to see some slomo of his forehand to see what he was doing.

So much for recollections,

don

[tennis_chiro]

Some oldies who fliped

First guy I could find in our archives that really flipped is Gomez, with a truly modern forehand. He has Mac's backswing, but then a truly modern looking flip with a semi-western to western grip.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/andresgomez/andresgomez_sa.html?AGFHRear1.mov

Courier also looks like he has a pretty good flip and with a more modern backswing:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/jimcourier/jc_forehand/jc_forehand.html?JCFHCenterRear.mov

Interesting when you go back, Budge has a forehand an awful lot like Mac. Borg and Laver have elements of the flip, but didn't close the face as much as today's players. It's all in the tennisplayer stroke archives! You can kind of see where the stroke morphed as players started to use the bigger frames of the late 70's and early 80's. I always felt you could draw the demarcation line at about Forget and before. Players after Forget learned with big rackets and they had a different attitude about short forehands. Those balls looked like overheads to those kids who started to play in the late 70's and early 80's. We always saw those shots as approach shots. Lendl hit them big, but he didn't hit them as big as the kids that started with 100 sq in frames. When the Wilson Profiles first came out, none of the good players could really play with them. I remember thinking at the time, once the kids that learn with those bazookas learn to play well, things were going to change, ... and they did.

don

don

[stotty]

Nastase flip

Like bottle, I was intrigued how much the grip influences the flip. It just makes you want to rush back in time and study some of the older players. I found this clip of Nastase, who hit his forehand with a continental grip. If you go to 1:17 on the clip, you'll see him hit a stunning forehand to win the point. The racket work is phenomenally quick but you can still clearly see a very full flip going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4wrrpzdYc

I love watching this Ashe/Nastase clip. It's very beautiful. Most Youtube clips are junk...not this one. It's one of the few clips from the 70's where you can see the ball properly and get an impression of pace. Like Mac, Nastase also, at times, firmly steers the ball around with little wrist and minimal flip...fascinating. Mac and Nastase could steer a ball, steering can only be done with minimal flip...that's very clear when you watch Mac and Nastase. The closest we've got today to steering is when Federer hits a forehand drop shot...makes me wonder what Federer would be like with a wooden racket.

[tennis_chiro]

Gawd, could Ilie move!!

Like bottle, I was intrigued how much the grip influences the flip. It just makes you want to rush back in time and study some of the older players. I found this clip of Nastase, who hit his forehand with a continental grip. If you go to 1:17 on the clip, you'll see him hit a stunning forehand to win the point. The racket work is phenomenally quick but you can still clearly see a very full flip going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4wrrpzdYc

I love watching this Ashe/Nastase clip. It's very beautiful. Most Youtube clips are junk...not this one. It's one of the few clips from the 70's where you can see the ball properly and get an impression of pace. Like Mac, Nastase also, at times, firmly steers the ball around with little wrist and minimal flip...fascinating. Mac and Nastase could steer a ball, steering can only be done with minimal flip...that's very clear when you watch Mac and Nastase. The closest we've got today to steering is when Federer hits a forehand drop shot...makes me wonder what Federer would be like with a wooden racket.

I don't think anyone has ever moved as well as Ilie. And no one ever had more fun. Too bad he lost his way

don

[stotty]

Connors

As tennis_chiro points out, McEnroe does have a flip, but it's barely perceptible. I thought Connors might be similar to Mac but I turned out to be wrong, Connors has much more flip than McEnroe.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/jimmyconnor/jc_forehand/jc_fh_arm_action/jc_fh_arm_action.html?JCFHArmActionRear.mov

Comparing the older players with today's players is interesting in terms of the flip and getting into the slot. Players years ago were firmer wristed than players these days...which goes some way to explaining why players today miss more wildly than in the case of McEnroe and Connors...who tended to miss by inches rather than feet.

I agree with tennis_chiro about McEnroe's ball control. It's about the best ever. Apparently Segura had exceptional ball control, but I never saw him play.

[bottle]

Man, McEnroe doesn't sweep back level at all. He golfs the racket back. It arcs down and up-- a pendulum.

Maybe that's how he closes the racket enough. I mean, any time you golf the racket forward in tennis you open the racket face and usually too much and you never get to the outside of the ball. But if you golf it backwards the process is the opposite-- you close the strings. Then you can figure out what you want to do on the foreswing.

[10splayer]

Looking in the archive...(something I often do when the forum is having a quite spell)...I came across some clips of McEnroe's forehand. It is a strange shot by world-class standards. It's flipless...he steers it...no pulling forward of the racket head.


http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...LevelRear2.mov

Hope I don't kill another thread, but here are my thoughts. Much of your observation (and the traditional vs modern forehand debate) are related specifically to the grip....The continental simply doesn't allow for much racquet head lag or hand and arm rotation..Take ANY racquet and try and create the kind of buttcap to ball hitting arm configuration you see in a current player. With such a weak grip..it really can't be done to any great degree. The grip, really promotes an "inline" (no lag) relationship between the hand and racquet. which is why it's so preferred on volleys and underspin shots.

Even in the old video's in the other thread, I don't see the "wrap" contributing much to racquet head speed, or spin, as there is no discernible "transition stage" in the forward swing....That is the racquet head immediately (in the forward swing) comes in line with the hand. Again, this is principally a result of the grip..

[stotty]

Hope I don't kill another thread, but here are my thoughts. Much of your observation (and the traditional vs modern forehand debate) are related specifically to the grip....The continental simply doesn't allow for much racquet head lag or hand and arm rotation..Take ANY racquet and try and create the kind of buttcap to ball hitting arm configuration you see in a current player. With such a weak grip..it really can't be done to any great degree. The grip, really promotes an "inline" (no lag) relationship between the hand and racquet. which is why it's so preferred on volleys and underspin shots.

Even in the old video's in the other thread, I don't see the "wrap" contributing much to racquet head speed, or spin, as there is no discernible "transition stage" in the forward swing....That is the racquet head immediately (in the forward swing) comes in line with the hand. Again, this is principally a result of the grip..

After considering your post and doing some experimenting myself over the last couple of days, I would have to agree with you. But returning to the precise subject of the thread, it's strange that McEnroe's flip (even taking into account his mild grip) is so minimal. Connors is also nothing like the players on the tour today. I think today's players gain a lot by having a fuller flip. Maybe these days there are more shanks, and players don't hit such a consistent, reliable length as they once did...but then they get so much more work on the ball that length is less of an issue.

BTW, you could never kill a thread, 10s...you just made it more interesting and allowed it to live a little longer.

[GeoffWilliams]

HIs game would not win many matches today. Hated by all the stringers he so insulted and stiffed, according to some of them, not in my own experience. Drug cheater. Nasty psych artist. Would have trouble winning an itf now. Great at the net. The french federation, and other world training groups, would laugh at his style and never support him. These days, a top junior needs some practice mentor help. Due to all the drugs he took, his body won't last much longer now. I'd say about ten years before cancer takes him out. When that happens, you will hear a cheer in the stringers room.

[bottle]

As a kid in Queens, he drained 3's in basketball from all over the place.

This from a same-aged kid in the neighborhood.

Maybe that's why his weird, stripped down forehand backswing has worked so well for him.

Just think how easy it would be to hit a lob.

[10splayer]

After considering your post and doing some experimenting myself over the last couple of days, I would have to agree with you. But returning to the precise subject of the thread, it's strange that McEnroe's flip (even taking into account his mild grip) is so minimal. Connors is also nothing like the players on the tour today. I think today's players gain a lot by having a fuller flip. Maybe these days there are more shanks, and players don't hit such a consistent, reliable length as they once did...but then they get so much more work on the ball that length is less of an issue.

BTW, you could never kill a thread, 10s...you just made it more interesting and allowed it to live a little longer.

I agree with much of this. In the simplest terms, a continental does not allow for the most efficient use of the tool. Can it be done? Of course, but not preferred in my opinion, as it does not allow for much "lag" in the forward swing. Can you see how (in the old videos) how the tip of the racquet comes "inline" with the hand at the beginning of the swing? (no lag) Once this occurs/is established, both ends of the racquet (tip/handle) will move at the same speed forward.. This is a terribly inefficient way to create end point racquet head speed.

No, the easiest way to create speed, is to drag the implement butt cap first, create lag, and then rotate it around the hand (which is where the bulk of acceleration occurs) I have seen pictures of Fed, for instance, where the butt cap is only a foot or so from the ball...

Incidentally, this "model" is used is used in other sports as well, such as golf and baseball...... any sport where a tool is used to create speed. I'm a scratch golfer, and I can tell you that perhaps the most defining characteristic of a good golfer, is the ability to maintain the lag (angle formed between shaft and arms) in the downswing. Most poor golfers "cast" the club at the top of the swing...a huge club head speed drain...

Anyway, the point is, that a continental makes it very difficult to create this lag/rotational model in the forward swing..

[bottle]

Useful, 10splayer. Thanks so much for this. We ought though (most of us) to balance information as solid as this with other personal perception such as Don Brosseau calling Federer's flip "violent" and perhaps a reason for his recent forehand ue's (along with his usual forehand clean winners).

That point of view recognizes that there are sensible things players not at an extreme can do and that there are the different degrees of flip.

Just within the McEnroe family, e.g., there are the more conventional forehands of Patrick.

But how far did he go? Pretty far, actually. I would take it.

[10splayer]

Useful, 10splayer. Thanks so much for this. We ought though (most of us) to balance information as solid as this with other personal perception such as Don Brosseau calling Federer's flip "violent" and perhaps a reason for his recent forehand ue's (along with his usual forehand clean winners).

That point of view recognizes that there are sensible things players not at an extreme can do and that there are the different degrees of flip.

Just within the McEnroe family, e.g., there are the more conventional forehands of Patrick.

But how far did he go? Pretty far, actually. I would take it.

Perfect! I agree 100 percent with you. There is always an element of "personalization" (of different concepts) that goes into finding what works best for you.