Oscar Wegner's method

[jlkm2219]

What do you think about Oscar Wegner's method for teaching tennis? What are the similarities and differences between his method and yours?

[johnyandell]

I can't say that I know Oscar's method well enough to answer that in detail. Some of the things I know he believes about watching and modeling the pros, I agree with. It may be, though, that we study the pros we see different things. Think he is mistaken in believing that the "wrap" finish is a cause of anything. Or that there is no turn in the forehand preparation, only "ball stalking." Also I don't believe in miracle cures--for cancer or the forehand--his master tennis in two days idea. I just don't think it really works that way. But many people are stimulated and inspired by his work. You might try searching around on the Tenniswarehouse message boards--he's gotten a ton of discussion pro and con there.

[bottle]

Fooey. I'm in this site and I'll reply right here-- no reason to go elsewhere.
Your forum is the wild and wooley one that doesn't edit letters and filter the more provocative ones out. If somebody must go elsewhere, though, take a look at Oscar's current DVD starring Charlie Maher, the new MIT men's coach, for some of the easiest, most natural hitting one will ever see.

To address the above flash points: Forehand wrap finish as cause of racket head acceleration equates with a huge muscular burst from pec and biceps,
that's all. The racket frame knifes sideways and upwards.

That Oscar doesn't believe in shoulders turn in the forehand is simply untrue.
His minimalist theory of movement is all about turning and leaning in the
desired direction of travel, and his shoulders can be just as turned as anyone
hitting a Landsdorp forehand. The difference may be that UB rotational forces and arm forces are all in the same direction rather than countering
each other.

Three. Oscar's selling snake oil? He's trying for simplicity, that's all. Exclusive concentration on hand, eye, and ball, as Maher explains, does away with the labrynthine detail that spoils almost all tennis instruction.

Hand or head can lead one's movement; hand or head then tells the feet what to do. That's just one example of Oscar's simplicity. The proof is in the pudding, though-- he gets quick and lasting results. Too many thousands of people say so. I loved finishing second in an open senior's tournament in a big city after just being a crummy 4.0 the week before.

I also commend the outspokenness of Colin Klick, a sophomore star of the MIT men's team, who, appearing with a thousand frame per second research project in the same video, excoriates his fourteen years of expensive, conventional instruction, which he was happy to abandon in a single night.
The next day, he says, he found himself playing the best tennis in his life.

[johnyandell]

Well, there you have it--a true believer! Hey I may not even understand Oscar (although I think I do a little bit). I don't connect with much that he has to say but if he is a positive force for other people then I say go for it.

[bottle]

Cancer of the Forehand

My girlfriend says: "CLEAN DON'T BLOG." Since I blog in subjects other than tennis, too, this means a lot of housecleaning. I did hear Oscar say, however, and I believe him, that his method is the cure for cancer of the forehand.

[johnyandell]

I wish I could get my wife to do more cleaning and less blogging...although it's all about art and sculpture and burning man for her... There certainly is plenty of forehand cancer out there--and belief in the cure is the key to the cure...

[CraigC]

Let's clean this board up

Does one extend all the way through when pushing the vacuum, or will one create a cleaner room by coming across with the elbow and wrist bit earlier? When dusting, should I pronate my arm for the really dirty spots or work to get more of a slicing action? And lastly, when taking out the garbage, do I move my left foot or right foot off the couch first? Oh, and that brings up another issue, should I be focused on the present when picking up my laundry or can I still think about the football game going on in the living room, and will this affect my game?
Is it true that Lansdorp's house is cleaner than Wegner's and would Macci really have to clean with a partner because of his bad movement?

Seriously, John, you can tell I some extra time on my hands if you need anything. It's raining down here in LA again.

[johnyandell]

YEAH! Part 3 on the Inside Out Position!!


Rick Macci's house was super clean by the way... Lansdorp? You should have seen the drawer he went digging in to try and find the video of Pete at age 12...horrifying!

[bottle]

Antiquation

To some innocent person with just enough knowledge to contemplate the game, I would say, "Only push the vacuum cleaner if you want to play old-fashioned tennis. Oh, maybe on a few service returns and approach shots.
Then you might try the antiquated adage to 'C-A-A-A-R-R-R-R-Y' the ball.
Most of the time, though, you're better off ripping. You get more dwell that way anyhow."

No, only pronate on the peanut butter jar. No, don't worry about which foot goes first. Follow your own heavy head, man, you'll be okay.

[mark]

Oscar's Message: Play Like The Pros

I like a lot of what Oscar has to say (in fact, I think he is familiar with John Yandell's work as he says many things that are similar). Here is the essence of Wegner's approach in his own words:

Top pros restrain themselves from reacting too quickly.

They keep the racquet to the front of their body until the ball is close.

They hit up on the serve, then fall forward.

Their forehands are mostly open stance.

Several players are opening their stance now for the two-handed backhands as well, although closed stance is still the norm in this side.

They hit reasonably close to the body, so as to have more power and control.

They bend their arm in the forehand, a much more natural way of powering the ball.

They emphasize lifting, not stepping in during the follow-through nor staying down.

They let the body act naturally, rather than trying to control it, letting it do whatever is needed to make the shot.

They pivot (turn facing the direction they need to go into) to run to any distant ball.

Most of these characteristics displayed by the top pros are quite opposed to traditional (or conventional) tennis coaching. Which way should you do it? Well, if someone is the best in the world, would he or she have the answer? Whether these players know it consciously or not, whether they ever learned something from me or my materials or my ESPN career, they follow my instructions to the letter, Federer included.

My recommendation is that you watch these wonderful players closely, observing them rather than the ball in flight, and copy as much as you can!!!

And if you need more help, my videos (DVDs) and new book (McGraw-Hill, December 2004), are the best investment you can make (for your tennis).

He is a big fan of the wrap or rather the "finish" and emphasizing feel or what he calls "finding" the ball and not worrying about footwork or much else. In essence of you find the ball with your hand (on your racquet) and move your hand in the direction you want the ball to go all the rest should come more or less naturally.

[johnyandell]

Well Oscar doesn't lack for belief in the impact of his own teaching...not sure too many people were aware of his ESPN career--much less the top players--I haven't actually ever seen him myself--was it some other version outside the states?

While I was at Tennisone I had the opportunity to work directly with Oscar--didn't find that there was much room for dialogue or disagreement especially if the video resources seemed to point in other directions than his beliefs. That got to be tiresome and a waste of scarce emotional energy. I'm sure he has helped a lot of people but I found myself struggling with some of the fundamentals of his approach because contrary to his claims they didn't really match what the video showed.

[mac1984]

I need help; I want to "clean up" at my local park in SF; I worry about stains - the kind that happen after losing to a guy for the 41st time. How can I get that nasty "losing" smell out of my gear? Should I just buy a new bag?

BTW, I tried both concrete cleaner and DecoTurf Renew; still I have problems mopping up in the 3rd set.

[sejsel]

I like a lot of what Oscar has to say (in fact, I think he is familiar with John Yandell's work as he says many things that are similar). Here is the essence of Wegner's approach in his own words:

Top pros restrain themselves from reacting too quickly.

I remember watching (then) tour pro Magnus Gustafsson sparring with the junior player at the local club over here. Everything he did seemed to be done with infinitely more ease than his opponent, and this junior was still very advanced and skillful.
The single determining factor when they were exchanging groundies was: Magnus did prepare for the shot, and made unit turn far earlier than the guy on the other side of the net.
He did everything more fluently as well.

Couple of years earlier I had a phone conversation with a good friend of mine, after his homecoming from Roland Garros as one of the coaches sent there on behalf of Swedish Tennis Federation.
He said then that the most noteable thing discerning pros at the French Open from the rest of the tennis world, during the practice sessions, was - early preparation, but always in rhytm, in the stroke movement.

To get all of this to work in match situations - well, let's not kid ourselves - it takes many, many, many hours of purposeful, controlled, well guided practice, and many hours of match play.

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They let the body act naturally, rather than trying to control it, letting it do whatever is needed to make the shot.

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Easy to say, but the devil is in detail here - how do You coach someone to achieve this? How long time does it take?
When does it become consistent, and at what level(s)?

This stresses the importance of implementing good methodics throughout the coaching process, but also thorough understanding of the stroke mechanics.

Most of these characteristics displayed by the top pros are quite opposed to traditional (or conventional) tennis coaching.

Any coaching contradicting many of the things pro do is simply wrong, inadequate coaching.
On the other hand, not everyone can, or should hit double hander Serena or Venus do, or try to emulate Sampras forehand to the letter at any cost (even though that forehand is one of the most "natural" strokes ever seen in pro tennis).

You have to find and detect what suites every individual, within the frame of what is biomechanically "correct".

Which way should you do it? Well, if someone is the best in the world, would he or she have the answer? Whether these players know it consciously or not, ....

Most often, if not always, they do not know it consciously in every detail, and most noteably, they couldn't explain every detail of the movement and hows and whys of their strokes.

...whether they ever learned something from me or my materials or my ESPN career, they follow my instructions to the letter, Federer included.

My recommendation is that you watch these wonderful players closely, observing them rather than the ball in flight, and copy as much as you can!!!

Federer says that he formed his forehand by the Boris Becker's, Sampras and McEnroe tried to emulate much of what Laver did on the court, watching the tapes of his matches.

Do not forget, however, all of them had some good and influential coaches, and some of the things these coaches say and teach doesn't really concurr with every single thing presented here.

And if you need more help, my videos (DVDs) and new book (McGraw-Hill, December 2004), are the best investment you can make (for your tennis).

He is a big fan of the wrap or rather the "finish" and emphasizing feel or what he calls "finding" the ball and not worrying about footwork or much else. In essence of you find the ball with your hand (on your racquet) and move your hand in the direction you want the ball to go all the rest should come more or less naturally.

Well, just a slight digression here: some interpretations of the claims on the followthrough by Wenger stated earlier are really almost in contradiction of what he says about leading the ball towards the intended target.

One of the significant problems many coaches encounter today (I believe), is lack of "understanding", "awareness" or "feel", by kids and adult practitioners, on when you can start the "wrap" and what has to happen before that and for how long, in order for shot to be lead at the target, and to get any depth and to get a penetrating shot (to get the ball "to move").

As a result, one can often see lack of both directional and depth-control, lack of controlled pace on the shot as well, simply because the adept is "obsessed" with making the wrap and going across the body with the racquet arm without doing anything else in between properly.

Being "a big fan of the wrap, rather than a finish", well, ok, but if you see the same blatant, horrid error day in and day out due to the "I have to do the wrap" thing, then I opt for rather being a fan of "find the ball with your hand (on your racquet) and move your hand in the direction you want the ball to go".

There is a whole lot more to be said here, but I'm leaving it at this for the time being.
One would have to agree with much of what Wenger conveys, but not all of it, especially when it comes to how do you get "there".

[bottle]

Interesting to see some old opinions, including my own, on Oscar Wegner up here among the tennis discussions. I think I've tried a lot of different ideas since then in tennis, sometimes to a loss-producing but nevertheless worthwhile fault.

My current offering on the Navratilova, McEnroe and Coach Kyril backhands at "A New Year's Serve" is a good example: The jury is out on that one but I'll report back.

Certainly the more diagonal and spread out one hand backhand grip of Coach Kyril is at odds with the right-angled grip that Oscar shows working in his first book and videos.

A bigger issue, though, is Oscar's complete openness to creativity AFTER one has refused to commit one's final takeback too soon. You can make up your own way to get the racket back and then forward, he suggests, and YOU should be the person to work that out-- a viewpoint I continue to find very congenial.

So give me my certain skepticism along with my certain respect toward everybody, please. And think of the old admonition not to swing from the top of the backswing in golf. Hitting a ball in any sport is a lot easier if you approach it slowly before you accelerate, a basic Oscarian idea as far as I am concerned whether I am "a true believer" in his teachings or not.

[sejsel]

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A bigger issue, though, is Oscar's complete openness to creativity AFTER one has refused to commit one's final takeback too soon.

Being unable to commit IN TIME (AND NOT ANY MOMENT AFTER THAT) to unit turn, which is precondition to any purposeful "takeback" (I do hate this "word") is another terrible, very fundamental, and very frequent problem any coach is facing in day in - day out work with kids, adults, and sometimes even more advanced adepts. We would, therefore, need to be more careful how we formulate things and what we are conveying.

I have written just recently on my observation of that swedish ATP Tour pro, and observation of my colleague from Rolland Gaross.

It seems that those lines haven't been taken seriously, of fully comprehended by everyone, neither I believe I have seen here (thus far) sound arguments for the opposite.

Yet, I claim that detail is one of the most important, fundamental facts of stroke production.

No hard feelings whatsoever here, but if we are to conduct serious, constructive debate, based on facts and what is correct, and what is false, vs. going around in circles, then we need more focus and really doing some, more or less, serious homework.

One excellent (among many) articles, describing this in detail (please, do read at least from "Great Timing" subtitle - paragraph) is:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/classiclessons/scott_murphy/scott_murphy_timing_magic/scott_murphy_timing_magic.html

You can make up your own way to get the racket back and then forward, he suggests, and YOU should be the person to work that out-- a viewpoint I continue to find very congenial.

Of course, I do second this, but still, it has to fall within frames of what is correct and biomechanically sound stroke execution.
Even here there is a room for committing a myriad of subtle and less subtle errors, that can vastly impede effectiveness of the stroke. (I'm saying this with the background of the years of experience).

Hitting a ball in any sport is a lot easier if you approach it slowly before you accelerate, a basic Oscarian idea as far as I am concerned whether I am "a true believer" in his teachings or not.

Sometimes, or many times, there is simply no time for approaching the ball, or the stroke itself, "slowly".

Just a fact of (tennis) life.