The Classic Backhand: Karsten Popp

[johnyandell]

Let's get your thoughts on Scott Murphy's latest "The Classic Backhand:
Karsten Popp"!

[captnemo]

Jesus that is just the way I used to hit it with my Jack Kramer--the hard slice--and those stinging low slice passing shots. Now that is a beautiful memory.

[stotty]

Let's get your thoughts on Scott Murphy's latest "The Classic Backhand:
Karsten Popp"!

I loved the article.

I find Karsten's backhand strange. He takes the racket back more like a two-hander than a one-hander. Maybe it's because he wraps the fingers of his left hand around shaft of the racket rather than gently holding the throat with the tips of his fingers like most one-handers do. With his sliced backhand, he takes the racket back like a two-handed drive before suddenly raising into a higher backswing to prepare for slice. His grip looks ever so slightly weaker than continental, too. It's an odd looking shot.

I do like it, though. His backhand has great simplicity to it. I love his inside out sliced backhand. That was a stunning shot in its day and you rarely see it anymore, if ever. Whenever I play on damp Astro Turf I use it all the time to approach the net.

I have never been totally sold on John Yandell's Darwinian theory (sorry, John, hope your not reading this) that modern players' sliced backhands have evolved more radically downward swings as a result of the high velocity of modern tennis...that it's a forced change. I think -like skilful volleying - good sliced backhands have simply become a lost art. Players are taught sliced backhands as an add on rather than as a shot that deserves equal merit to any other in a player's repertoire.

Rosewall's sliced backhand was better than Federer's. I honestly feel it could stand up to today's tennis without a problem. I watched Rosewall hit with Fred Stolle many years ago at Wimbledon and I can tell you that shot of his was amazing. These old clips you see don't do it justice.

There is great merit in the way Karsten plays. It definitely suits the club player better...couldn't agree more that sliced backhands should be the staple of a club player and not topspin.

[10splayer]

Perhaps a knee jerk reaction?

I'll take a different position here. Perhaps, (i certainly think so) we're going a little too far with the whole "out with the new, in with the old thinking".

I for one, will never buy into the one grip theory on the backhand. Even for club level players. In fact, they are generally the one's that benefit most from grip changes as they help clarify the distinct differences in swing shapes, and racquet face angles, between slice and topspin. In my experience, the most common problem with rec players are "hybrid" swings, often times, as a result of a unitary grip.

In fact, (imho) it's very important, to establish early on, very DIFFERENT swing shapes one shot to the other. The continental, tends to "muddy" this difference. Often times, nothing more than a stronger grip (for topspin) is all that's needed to clarify this distinction....

Having said this, do I envy the way Mcenroe, can stand on top of the baseline, pick the ball up on the short hop, deflect it with little effort, vary the shapes to make the ball behave in different ways, all with the same grip? Of course, but......playing with one grip requires a much higher tennis I.Q then playing with two when spin variance is a goal.

[scottmurphy]

Karsten's take back IS anomalous in the way he holds the throat with the left hand much like a two hander with extensive hand separation. In all honesty up until now I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to ask him how that came about.
I can't say I agree with the thought that the slice backhand is a lost art, either at the pro or club level. I see that shot practiced and employed by the pros pretty extensively. At a recent Challenger event I attended I can't recall a single player I watched that didn't hit a good number of slice BH's and and in fine fashion. I never saw Rosewall except on film but if his slice was better than Roger's it must have been frightening. The slice was the first and only BH Roger hit in his younger days and that's paid great dividends for him. He can put it on a dime whether returning serve or as a part of a rally. I wish he'd hit more of them inside out...if they were anything like what he can do with his BH dropshot they'd be sinister.
As to using one grip for multiple BH's I think it's great if you can do it but I sure can't. I actually use a composite grip for the slice and I guess what you'd call an extreme eastern for the topspin. Not having to change grips would be nice but I personally need my wrist BEHIND the handle for topspin...not on top of it. Karsten isn't the only guy I play with however that uses a mild grip for both BH's. They can't get a much top as I can but I have to say it doesn't seem to much of a deterrent for them.

[stotty]

Karsten

Karsten's take back IS anomalous in the way he holds the throat with the left hand much like a two hander with extensive hand separation. In all honesty up until now I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to ask him how that came about.
I can't say I agree with the thought that the slice backhand is a lost art, either at the pro or club level. I see that shot practiced and employed by the pros pretty extensively. At a recent Challenger event I attended I can't recall a single player I watched that didn't hit a good number of slice BH's and and in fine fashion. I never saw Rosewall except on film but if his slice was better than Roger's it must have been frightening. The slice was the first and only BH Roger hit in his younger days and that's paid great dividends for him. He can put it on a dime whether returning serve or as a part of a rally. I wish he'd hit more of them inside out...if they were anything like what he can do with his BH dropshot they'd be sinister.
As to using one grip for multiple BH's I think it's great if you can do it but I sure can't. I actually use a composite grip for the slice and I guess what you'd call an extreme eastern for the topspin. Not having to change grips would be nice but I personally need my wrist BEHIND the handle for topspin...not on top of it. Karsten isn't the only guy I play with however that uses a mild grip for both BH's. They can't get a much top as I can but I have to say it doesn't seem to much of a deterrent for them.

We can agree to disagree over the sliced backhand dilemma.

It would be nice to know if there is a story behind Karsten's two-handed-looking take back on his backhand. I imagine he was perhaps a two-handed player at one point.

I actually think Karsten is a little unique in that his technique seems to pre-date the era he played in...the 80's. Karsten's grips are more conservative than that era and the shape of his strokes differ somewhat too. He seems to have been mostly reliant on a sliced backhand, which is again unusual.

I think Karsten is Karsten. By that I mean the way he plays suits him perfectly. It's the best way for him. He's a little like Rosewall...just born to play at a certain point in history (many have disagreed with over that one, but I'm sticking to the theory).

I'd like to thank you for doing such fine articles on Karsten, Scott. I think I have enjoyed them more than anything else I have ever read on tennisplayer...and I've read some truly great articles over the years browsing the website....which I do virtually everyday.

Great stuff...terrific.

[scottmurphy]

Stotty I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comments and Karsten feels the same way. We had lunch together today before he returned to Paris and I asked him about the way he holds the racquet with his left hand during preparation. He never hit a two hander...it was just what he did. He said the one and only change that anyone ever made with his BH was when he was about 11 and that was to switch the grip slightly so he'd have pretty much the same grip for every shot.
In his playing days Karsten was strictly a serve and volleyer. Then after the substantial break he took he developed some shoulder issues and backed off of that style somewhat. From the first time I hit with him four years ago he's driven the BH more than slice it. He hits that evil inside out slice down the line when you hit a crosscourt BH or an inside out FH and I still can't believe how consistently well he does it. You can start running that way the moment you hit your shot and it still tails away from you for a winner...pretty amazing.
Anyway Stotty thanks a million and I hope you enjoy the third installment as much as the first two.
Scott

[don_budge]

It's a Classic...good as Gold.

Let's get your thoughts on Scott Murphy's latest "The Classic Backhand:
Karsten Popp"!

Thanks for another well thought out and well organized article Scott Murphy. I think that the key to these efforts is in the organization and Yandel’s editing probably has a good deal to do with this. The thesis for these two treatises is how you put it... “built on fundamentals that transcend the differences between so-called traditional and modern styles.” The book is Tilden...the fundamentals have not changed much if at all. If there is a fundamental difference in the process it is attributed to the racquet and the equipment. More margin for error equals bigger backswings and bigger follow throughs. Three sigma takes on a whole new meaning.

This is a 60’s backhand...no doubt about that. A blast from the past...and it’s a beauty. No muss, no fuss. The beauty is in the simplicity...no wonder it is repeatable and as solid as a concrete wall. Maybe Karsten put in some hours hitting against a wall somewhere down there deep in the continent of Africa...In the Heart of Darkness. It reminds me of something that was forged against a wall somewhere. Boring...in the sense of blue eyes that pierce the soul.

The grip is of little consequence for me but it will limit him in hitting extreme spins on a consistent basis but as you note this is not the intent of this player. He is going to stand right up on the baseline and go toe to toe with you or he is going to approach the net and beat you to the punch. At least that will be his first options but I will bet that he has options three and four also. Old school players had three or four options if they expected to succeed on different surfaces. Today’s modern game is essentially played on one surface with different variations of the cosmetics...slow and slower. You never mentioned his ability to drop shot and lob but judging by his grip and his style of play he has the capacity for a lot of variation in that stroke.

This swing was trained long before over sized racquets came into play as you can imagine because you can see that the steepness of the backswing and the followthrough is not nearly as exaggerated as many of the modern swings prevailing today. The size of the racquet is the physics of this equation...more area allows for more racquet face exposed to the ball at impact regardless of swing plane. As it stands...and you make this point very vivid it is the consistency of this swing that makes it a real weapon. That and the ability of Karsten to “penetrate” the wall of defense that modern games are built around with his armor piercing bullets.

The consistency is incredible isn’t it? That consistency and the uncanny ability to place the ball precisely where he wants to at a variety of angles, speeds and spins with only a virtually undetectable variance in his mechanics. Given that the game of tennis is really about maneuvering your opponent into an off balanced position in order for you to deliver the knockout, this backhand is designed for just that. He can reach any part of the court with this backhand and your reference to laser like precision is no exaggeration...he can lay it on the lines or place it deep near the baseline into the corners, while at the same time he can access the forecourt of his opponent. Incredible overt power is not his forte...it is subtle deception that seals the deal. He is sneaky powerful though...or as you put it he operates with "effortless power". This is what makes this swing technically aesthetically beautiful but at the same time enables him to apply a severe tactical lesson too. You don’t think that the ball has so much on it until it is right up on you and then it seems to get there in a hurry.

I love this business about the inside out and it is perhaps the most brilliant insight into the article. I think that this is the perfect neutralizing shot against the modern forehand with the strong grip and the desire to hit balls at waist or chest height. Speaking of McEnroe, he made a pretty good living dismantling backhands with this technique/tactic. Tilden says never give your opponent the ball that he wants to hit and if one could slip this little beauty in when the occasion calls for it you can really make your opponent search himself for an answer. Sliding this ball down the forehand side in combination of the option to go deep into the backhand corner or short to the backhand gives you options and all of them disguised to the last blink of the eye as the backswing gives very little away about the intentions of the shot. Disguise is a definite factor in the subtle lethal results of this technique. Same backswing...different results. Again you make a nice point in asking the question...”Fed, what about it? Why not to the Nadal backhand?”

The videos certainly give a lot of credence to what you are driving at. Notice the action of the shoulders. With the same grip...what is it that makes one shot differ from the other? It’s the way that the racquet face passes through the path of the ball of course and that is largely determined by the preparation. When Karsten is preparing to slice or drive underspin his right shoulder is more or less plowing the arm and racquet down through the ball. His shoulder is raised and comes down pretty heavily on the object of his disdain...the ball. When he is hitting flatter or with his modicum of topspin he points his shoulder down at the ball and subtly rotates it up and through the path of his shot with his arm and racquet swinging freely though the path of the ball. With such a simple swing path the difference in the results can be subtly manipulated by taking the ball a little earlier for some topspin or a slightly flatter ball or by taking the ball a bit later for underspin with a nasty bite. It's a matter of hitting the ball on the descending part of the swing or on the way up. Sheer genius in it's efficiency.

The one weakness in the whole presentation is in some of the videos where the motion of the Karsten Popp backhand is stopped at impact and I want to see the rest of the story...the follow through. I have to agree with licensedcoach here...these have been two great articles. The strength is the fundamental approach to the swing. From a teaching standpoint, it is the stressing of fundamentals in the end that will separate the better players and teachers from the herd. This is how I interpret the value of an article...does it make me a better teacher? Here the answer is a resounding yes as it encourages me to think thoughtfully through the fundamentals over and over...like the forging of a great backhand against the concrete wall.

[klacr]

...From a teaching standpoint, it is the stressing of fundamentals in the end that will separate the better players and teachers from the herd. This is how I interpret the value of an article...does it make me a better teacher? Here the answer is a resounding yes as it encourages me to think thoughtfully through the fundamentals over and over...like the forging of a great backhand against the concrete wall.

I concur don_budge. All articles I read on TP.net I always judge on the question "Does this make me a better teacher?" Fundamentals fundamentals fundamentals. Great players are masters of the basics. They then transform those basics into works of art.

This was a great article by Scott Murphy. I applaud Scott for sharing Karsten's game with us. It makes all of us learn and think.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stroke]

I like what Don Budge pointed out about Karsten standing up on the baseline and refusing to budge, which his basically continental, old school style allow him to so. Certainly no extreme grips and spin here, which makes the game a lot easier to play as one ages. As also has been pointed out by a couple of posters, Karsten's grip structure and style resembles McEnroe, who appears to be the greatest over 50 player ever. McEnroe's grip structure, and resulting style of play, is to me the ultimate role model for aging players.

[bottle]

I don't know. I tried it, and some knowledgeable players-- the tennis writer/teaching pro/neuroscientist Ray Brown and an assistant in the pro shop at the Joe White Tennis Center in Winston-Salem-- told me they found "My McEnroe Experiment" very interesting or supported or recommended it, Ray since I am tall-- but on the other hand, the aging players will inevitably encounter some young dudes and not handle their huge topspin as well as the real McEnroe can.

So, while I agree that "the aging player" does want a mild grip structure, I don't think it needs to be quite as mild as that of John McEnroe.

Everything of a technical nature in tennis is, ultimately, personal experience leading to opinion. And admittedly the data base of my experiments is narrow: A report on one individual.

My grips: continental for serve, slices, lobs, volleys and overhead; 3.5 Federer like eastern for forehand; eastern backhand for drives but with heel of hand at 8.5 . As I just tried to suggest, I did McEnroe uni-grip for everything for one full year but then aged some more.

[stotty]

I like what Don Budge pointed out about Karsten standing up on the baseline and refusing to budge, which his basically continental, old school style allow him to so. Certainly no extreme grips and spin here, which makes the game a lot easier to play as one ages. As also has been pointed out by a couple of posters, Karsten's grip structure and style resembles McEnroe, who appears to be the greatest over 50 player ever. McEnroe's grip structure, and resulting style of play, is to me the ultimate role model for aging players.

I use a continental grip for all my shots. Works well until you play someone young. Then you feel older than ever...

[glacierguy]

New member. Loved this article, and the forehand one too. I identify with Karsten, having played a lot 'til aged 21, then not touching a racket for 30 years. Picked up a racket again to teach my children. I am now a total curiosity at my club, playing almost pure classical, with the re-issued Wilson Pro Staff 85 (I still have the original ones too).

BTW, my username stems from being likened to a guy who fell into a glacier crevass, and then popped out at the bottom playing tennis from 30 years ago.

[stotty]

New member. Loved this article, and the forehand one too. I identify with Karsten, having played a lot 'til aged 21, then not touching a racket for 30 years. Picked up a racket again to teach my children. I am now a total curiosity at my club, playing almost pure classical, with the re-issued Wilson Pro Staff 85 (I still have the original ones too).

BTW, my username stems from being likened to a guy who fell into a glacier crevass, and then popped out at the bottom playing tennis from 30 years ago.

Thanks for bumping this thread back up from the depths. It is one of my all time favourite TP articles. I found Karsten a fascinating study.

I love classic tennis. A number of us the forum feel quite passionately about the subject.

[glacierguy]

I'm really enjoying the site - great articles, and great videos. I love classic tennis too, but that's a good job, because it's all I can do! When I started hitting at my new club, some random guy just started shouting from the back fence "You're hitting very flat!!!". And when I served & volleyed against the club singles champ, I couldn't tell whether he was offended or just non-plussed (I lost). Anyway, I'm having fun, and this site is helping with that.