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My take on the Sampras serve. The things no one else talks about.

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  • My take on the Sampras serve. The things no one else talks about.

    I first recorded Sampras during the 1989 Philly indoor, where he beat Lendl for his first title, and watched and watched him thousands of times in slow motion since then. My take on Sampras comes from these many hours of slow motion studies over a 20 year period.

    sampras serve oh

    sampras french open

    No one really talks about the energy used, or the type of energy used by any given shot or pro shot. To produce a world class shot, your energy has to be very fast, and very relaxed. You can watch film all day, and practice all day, but if your energy is not just as polished, you will never gain anything close to a pro result.

    Stance:
    The Sampras stance starts with all the weight on the rear foot, which makes it simpler to move his center of mass, gravity wise, into and up. He hunches over and forward, with arms relaxed, and frame up at start of motion, yet, all his weight is backwards on rear foot and front foot de weighted, even as all his focus is forwards. His serve is all about moving his center of mass and trading rear position for forwards position, in a very smooth and relaxed way. Look at the last over head frame picture in the Mercedes Benz tournament, and you can see just how twisted his core is. His chest is facing the back fence, and he has begun his leg drive upwards, yet, his frame is still pointing downwards and back! Raonic and Harrison look almost identical in this same position, but they don't coil sideways quite as much, with back to net, and chest to rear fence. No server in history had as much core twist as Sampras.


    Toss:
    He J tosses and turns shoulders, externally abducts his shoulder in a very relaxed way. Did anyone ever see him catch a bad toss? No. His toss is super accurate, step one. As he goes into a knee bend 18" downwards as his whole body mass moves forwards, bowing the left hip way out over the baseline, leading hip much higher than rear hip, and this allows a very large coil/shoulder over shoulder sideways. He creates a near almost 70 degrees to the ground with his shoulders, as his right side back scrunches up as he bends badkwards.

    Delay on racquet drop from trophy:
    His racquet arm delays the frame drop, not yet even to vertical, before the leg drive begins, and his elbow then collapses very fast, forwards into a straight/up/down angle with a huge back arch, with his chest to the sky now, which he maintains through the whole shot. The large arch allows a greater coil with a higher elbow. Then his leg drive forces his shoulders into a parking meter coin slot forwards, and the back arch quickly moves to the left side back, father forward than any other server in history, so his contact point is often 4' inside the baseline! The back arch then switches from rear wards to forwards, moving his entire body very fast from a rear cock to a forward scrunch. Fed is only about a foot in front at contact, and Becker about 2 and a half feet and Raonic is only about 2 and a half feet at contact in front of the baseline..
    Forearm pronation:
    Then his arm pronates around the elbow, so the wrist stays locked with the forearm until after contact, and the forearm snaps around a lightning fast 180 degrees or more, forging a longer lever arm due to the delayed wrist break and the locked wrist at contact, forming a much long lever arm at contact, and now the hip over hip shoulder over shoulder completes, with the 90 degree angle now completely reversed, so that his shoulders exchange positions entirely, everything rotating around the elbow. And now the shoulders are straight up and down forwards, with leading shoulder the lower one now.
    Secret of his accuracy:
    The locked wrist also gives a very stable and accurate platform for accuracy, at the cost of some pace, but allowing him to hit aces on the lines at 120mph vs. 144mph. More accurate under pressure, than anyone else in the world's history. Why is that? The far forward contact point, the deceptively simple form, the locked wrist, combine with the delayed trophy drop allow his serve to have a greater kinetic path way, a longer, smoother, more accurate path way, than any other in history. This keeps the back arched even through contact, allowing the elbow and frame greater motion under his elbow. This combines to create a "vicious whip lash", as he describes in his autobiography. The whip lash is all based on that simple, locked wrist, giving his shot a long rifle accuracy, vs. a .22 caliber shorter lever, that most servers use. The smooth relaxed rhythm of the locked wrist during contact causes automatic accuracy. He said to Justin Gimelstob, "I turn my shoulders, I bend my knees, and I put it on the line.", when Justin asked him,

    "Hey, hey, Pete, how do you serve so well?" Thanks a lot Pete. That really helps me.
    How he creates vicious whip lash:
    He also stops his shoulder at the top of the stroke, during contact, and internally rotates it, transferring all its motion to the locked wrist, and forearm twist. The entire motion of the shot then causes the frame to snap over violently, the frame bed which contacted the ball now facing towards the side fence after contact. His serves are never flat, always spin serves, but 120mph spin serves, and 108mph on seconds. The forearm during contact snaps forwards, and the stopped shoulder, causes the forearm to then snap around way past contact point, always imparting a lot of spin: 2200-2800 rpm on firsts, and 4000-4800 on seconds, creating a curving vicious heavy ball that the top returners often returned, but popped up for easy volley put a ways. It's the heavy spin, that caused his serve to rapidly "kick" off to the side, which put the ball out of the sweet spot at the last mili second.

    The chong stance also starts it all, and then the J toss, into a parabolic arc, 3' higher than contact, at start going down to groin area, and then curving out front to an 11 oclock position or 12, farther left than any other server. After the toss, which is 3 feet higher than contact, he simply turns his shoulders so his chest is facing the back fence. This far left contact allows greater access to the back hand side of returners. The leg drive then drives him forward and to the left, so he can get a lower back bend, and straight/up/down shoulder angle on the ball, and his knees come up into a bend, just like Fed does.
    The double V:
    The hitting structure then forms a V, with the elbow the lower pointed end of the V, and then a < > with his head in the center of the rotating V. The speed of the V is increased by the delayed trophy drop as the frame faces the back fence, until after the leg drive. The leg drive is driven from the rear foot forward, forcing the left hip out, all done before the frame ever even reaches vertical over his head. The V collapses while his back stays arched, even as he drives forwards, rotating his shoulders, while the V remains intact until the last mili second. The forearm then snaps up and around the elbow, and the V straightens out, and reattains its shape after contact, which acts as a rotating stopping point for kinetic transfer of motion. Like a pitcher, who coils all the way back towards the plate, he coils all the way back towards the net before leg drive, twisting his core incredibly, form shared by Raonic, and the leg drives the left hip forwards way out over the baseline. The pitcher also lays his wrist back all the way, and leaves it there coiled for as long as possible. They are throwing 100mph without a racquet lever arm! Sampras also lays the frame back until after leg drive forwards and up. But he only goes up as a consequence of moving the shoulders into the parking meter slot, and the V bullets forwards into contact point. This arched back and parking meter slot at contact, allows far greater forwards contact into the baseline.

    The combination of the collapsing elbow, and the back scrunch trading from right rear to front left side of the back, happen so fast and smoothly it fools the eye. The range of motion of the shot is huge, due to the far rearwards start, the back arch trading places so far out in front, yet all done so fluidly and relaxed and fast. Not only does the back arch trade positions, but the shoulders trade, the V trades, so it all about reversing the rear positions into the forwards positions. But the angle of the V and wrist at contact are automatic, and locked in a way, providing incredible accuracy. All he has to do is focus on which part of the ball to hit, and the angle. Since the toss is super accurate, the motion is locked into this accuracy as well.
    No leg kick back:
    Sampras had little leg kick back. He was in a hurry to get to the net, and a large kick back slows that down.

    So the things I never see anyone talk about are: his very far forward contact. His locked wrist/forearm lever being longer. The double V. His energy used for the serve. The dipsy doodle movement his knees make as he changes direction from sideways, to forwards on leg drive. Raonic does it too. His extreme twisted chest to the rear fence. His delayed frame at trophy. His elbow collapsing very fast towards his head. HIs weight in stance being all the way back, yet his back hunched over and entire focus forwards. His back being arched the whole time, including contact, which allows his contact to be so far out in front. His use of spin on all serves. The cause of his accuracy: the longer lever arm, of his shoulders/forearm/wrist, straight up and down to form one long lever during contact. HIs elbow moving back wards just after the shot, creating a whip like effect.

    The most important part: Is only the part that relates to you and helps your own serve improve. Don't forget the fast energy you need to create a fast frame.
    Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 11-01-2012, 08:13 AM.

  • #2
    My problems with his form

    The problem I've had with this form is many fold. I can't seem to coil anywhere near as much. I can't time the leg drive right. I can't arch my back that much. I don't like a 389g frame, etc. of the type used by him, and Becker at 395g, and Edberg at 405g, and borg at 410g. Borg won his wimbledons by serving and volleying, btw. Just tossing that far in front is strange to me. So I've never been able to hit a serve like his. Just to coil that much, with the chong intact, places a huge stress on my frame/body. Then I just don't trust my knees can take an 18" drop down and drive up. I can't seem to get my energy fast enough nor to snap my forearm fast enough.

    The dipsy doodle knee movement, just before leg drive up, also adds a lot of mph and timing, which I never have mastered like Sampras and Raonic have.
    Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-25-2012, 10:30 PM.

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    • #3
      My admiration of the Sampras service motion and shots #9 and #10 on the red clay...

      Beautiful shot of the moment of truth where the racquet is "falling" behind the back of Pete Sampras. This is where the great servers are collecting their forces to strike. Beautiful backswing...notice how the arm, racquet and hand position basically stay intact yet relaxed throughout the backswing motion further stressing the importance of a good set up position.

      It is the weight of the racquet head that is shaping the "yellow trail" of his serve in the other picture that you posted on the service thoughts for alexandrafranco thread. Relaxation is paramount here and dictates the motion. Swinging as opposed to hitting. Even though his setup appears to be a bit unorthodox the champion manages to get into a perfect and relaxed position to go after the ball with a cobra like strike. Thus the objective of the backswing is fulfilled to perfection...he really brings it on with the forward motion.

      In golf...they say that if you want to drive longer you don't necessarily swing harder, that you just turn the shoulders more. I think that much could be said of the tennis serve. It looks to me as if Pete is turning his shoulders around 45 degrees past perpendicular to the baseline.

      My only problem with the Sampras serve is that from a teaching point of view this is not a suitable model. His motion goes beyond basic fundamentals...particularly in the setup position. He sure manages to get it back on track very early on in his backswing...it looks to me in frame #2 of the first sequence of pictures that he is beautifully on track. This is the problem of mimicking...you have to understand the nuances and quirks of the original.

      But on the other hand he is doing so many fundamentally perfect things and the athleticism is admirable and something to aspire to for the young and flexible...how can you not use him as a model. I really admire the footwork and lower body movement. Wonderful service swing and volley machine!



      Just gorgeous...look at him come out of that "coiled snake" pose. Once that racquet starts to fall behind him that is the signal...the legs drive first with the hips, then the shoulders rotate and then finally it's the throwing motion of the arm. The sum total of that effortless move was a total synchronistic bomb.
      Last edited by don_budge; 10-26-2012, 01:34 AM.
      don_budge
      Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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      • #4
        Frame #12 and me many moons ago...



        Pretty close...johnny_rattlesnake!
        don_budge
        Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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        • #5
          Looking good there. The last little dipsy doodle knee move also serves to increase the total coil/pace, and Raonic does it too. Best motion of all time, and yet, no cone can copy it. Except for Rampras.

          It would make a great story, if I was able to change my serve enough at my age and weight, to become unbreakable at my level. I don't think anyone in history has been able to do that, make a huge gain on their serve in their fifties.

          The only way to do it would be to use video tape practice on a weekly basis, and even that would take a year.
          Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-26-2012, 08:38 AM.

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          • #6
            Hell, I'm in my seventies, and my serve has never been better thanks to my recent decision to copy J. Donald Budge's serve as much as I could. I'd be the first to say "There's no magic anywhere" but on the other hand there is the reality of staying on the ground. It's a lot easier to keep yr. head still when you're not yumpin up and down.
            Last edited by bottle; 10-26-2012, 11:10 AM.

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            • #7
              Now that would be something. To see if Bottle can serve 120mph.

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              • #8
                Dunno. I'm awful big and awful strong.

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                • #9
                  Federer and Sampras

                  Thanks for all that detailed breakdown on the Sampras serve, geoff. I found this clip comparing Federer and Sampras serving. Sampras seems to get his throwing arm up quicker. I wondered if this was a factor in why Pete's shoulders slope so steeply?...more than Federer's. Over here in the UK we're taught having "steep shoulders" is a major factor in getting more power. Would you concur with this?

                  Stotty

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                  • #10
                    He obtains the greatest slope, right when he does the dipsy doodle knee bend, which accentuates and "forces" his left hip out to its greatest extension over the baseline, more than any other server. It is also timed, with that leg drive, and the frame is delayed, kept to the rear at about 70-80 degrees, so the whip lash effect is maximized. It also max. shoulder slope in turn simultaneously, so that last little dip (Raonic does it too), is the after burner. Most servers never learn that little secret, that is, max. the coil with that last little surge to raise the left hip up extremely high versus the rear right hip. Makes the shoulders slope extremely, just as you mentioned, but that is the best way to add pop to a mediocre server who does not raise his left hip up; Federer's slope/hip angle just is not as much at all, nor is his back arch, which allows a higher elbow, and more slope angle on the forward reverse. HIs back also bends over forwards, forcing his rear hip over his front hip, and creates a straighter up/down angle of attack on snap off. All of it is smoothly timed so the forearm snap is very fast yet very accurate. Snaps over the elbow, which is stopped by internal shoulder rotation, and makes the elbow go straight up/down and backwards for the whip lash to occur.

                    Look at the french open frames: 8-10 and 14. The shoulders attain a near vertical angle and exchange positions very smoothly and very quickly. Frame #10 is achieved by the dipsy doodle knee and rear coil. Frame #14 is achieved by "jamming" the shoulders vertically forwards into the parking meter slot, bending the back way forwards the same that Becker used to do, allowing for a very far forwards contact versus servers who don't jam forwards. It also allows for a longer kinetic chain, and more "space" for the frame to accelerate into. Longer motions mean more force applied to snap off. Hence, explains why so many atp players are now over 6'6": they have more available kinetic chain in which to gain more accelerated frame speeds, and hold serve easier: Raonic, Isner, Anderson, Querrey, etc. It allows for a straight up/down contact 4' into the baseline, way longer than any other server, even Becker, as the leg drives the whole hitting structure that far into the court, yet, the contact is still valid. 1,000 aces a year for Sampras. And he was only 6'1", and yet served like a giant of the game. With no back hand to speak of (except when he played Agassi), he won so many slams.

                    I spent an hour today working on that little dipsy move, and for the first time, hit aces to all four lines against a guy who knows my motion. He didn't even notice, just said, "You've got more on the ball." HIt three in a row. Drove my left hip up and out more, with that move. It's (the aces prove it) the key for me, as I have not been aware that I've not been doing it at all. If you look at the first Mercedes frame, his hip is 12" behind the baseline, and on the last oh frame, it's 2" out over the baseline, for a range of about 14-16" forwards, and also angle up higher than rear hip. It's such a simple motion that all he has to do, is focus on the small piece of the ball he's aiming for. Everyone says how "complicated" his motion is. Bs.
                    Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-27-2012, 06:36 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Cross-Reference

                      Today's post "This Way and That" under "A New Year's Serve" discusses frames # 9 and 10 in the red clay sequence up above.

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                      • #12
                        Another thing that Sampras does, is use his wrist at the top of trophy, to "drive" the frame under his elbow at full back arch. His hand speed is used to make the frame go way under the elbow, past vertical, and this is something all great servers do, to maximize the kinetic pathway, make it longer, and therefore be able to put more on the ball. Fed does it also. Most servers never comprehend this. Most never obtain a high enough elbow, or an arched enough back, to get past vertical under the elbow. This also serves to "cock" the forearm all the way backwards, so it has more kinetic energy stored to "flip" over at snap off.

                        Yet, if any of this is "musceld", the speed goes down. All top servers relax even at snap off. The speed that turns the corner is immense. Only through this relaxed speed can we obtain the right energy for pro results. Same goes throughout the gamut of shots on baseline, and true for volleys as well. Speed rules through relaxed acceleration, yet very murderous acceleration.
                        Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-28-2012, 11:12 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Economy of Motion...

                          Originally posted by geoffwilliams View Post
                          I spent an hour today working on that little dipsy move, and for the first time, hit aces to all four lines against a guy who knows my motion. He didn't even notice, just said, "You've got more on the ball." HIt three in a row. Drove my left hip up and out more, with that move. It's (the aces prove it) the key for me, as I have not been aware that I've not been doing it at all. If you look at the first Mercedes frame, his hip is 12" behind the baseline, and on the last oh frame, it's 2" out over the baseline, for a range of about 14-16" forwards, and also angle up higher than rear hip. It's such a simple motion that all he has to do, is focus on the small piece of the ball he's aiming for. Everyone says how "complicated" his motion is. Bs.
                          At your age and with your extra pounds...you are inviting a disaster with all of that knee and hip strain and contortion. At least a normal person would. I understand that you are some sort of tank. Settle into a nice energy efficient motion like the Don Budge motion at fifty years old. It's sustainable. One can serve like that until they reach the Promised Land.
                          don_budge
                          Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                          • #14
                            HIt five more aces today. But only to two lines, not all four like yesterday. Did not have the same pop, due to less hip bow/coil. I am "some sort of tank".

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                            • #15
                              The point is...well, a couple of things.

                              Originally posted by geoffwilliams View Post
                              I am "some sort of tank".
                              Keep in mind my point is that you are not Sampras...neither is bottle. Neither am I. I used to make a similar move to the ball that he does but I am certain that I don't any longer...at least I don't think I do. Sometimes I have the same problem that everybody else does...separating my hopes from the reality of the situation.

                              The thing is that of course I love the Sampras serve...what's not to like. But it takes years of practice and one does not arrive at that conclusion to form without much experimenting and trial and error. You cannot teach the Sampras motion. You can use elements of it. Professional players may use it as their model. I am surprised we don't see more do it. Much as I am surprised that we don't see more Roger Federer clones.

                              bottle makes some intelligent choices at his stage of the game. He has picked a model that is a bit on the elder side and his motion is one of economy and efficiency. There is plenty of power built into that motion...believe me I know first hand. Not only power but from such a secure base to serve from you can work on accuracy and percentages which may be more important to bottle at this point than mph's. Plus the motion is sustainable over the years which means that you can improve on it. Aces are all well and good but if you are playing the percentages you want to get errors off of the return and you want to set you opponent up with weak returns. Placement, power and spin varying with each objective in each serve...it takes a perfect motion built on stability and repeatability.

                              My comment about your being some sort of tank was only to highlight that you are not a 24 year old supple and frisky Pete Sampras. Using motions like his on your vulnerable knees and hips might be a recipe for injury. Another reason and larger in the scope of things for my use of the word is your indestructible attitude...to which I can only marvel and admire.
                              Last edited by don_budge; 10-29-2012, 06:34 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
                              don_budge
                              Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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