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Would love to get your thoughts on Kerry Mitchell's latest article - "The Return of Serve and Volley: Can It Happen?"
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Rpm string studies have shown, that a gut main and a high cof cross, such as alu power, l-tec 4s, cylcone, etc., produce the greatest amounts of spin. Gut alone, no, but a gut/poly hybrid can produce more rpm than poly alone: Hence, Roger at wilson premium (vs team gut)/alu power rough 17g, (48.5/46.2lbs) Djoker at: vs team/alu power, (59.5/57lbs) Murray at alu power/vs team,(61/61lbs) and even Roddick used a poly/gut hybrid: hurricane tour/vs team at about 63, although he dropped down to 57 latter stage.
Why is that? Why would gut snap back better than pure poly? Gut has more friction, so it's counter intuitive. All those natural animal fibers, grabbing and sticking. Pros don't use silicone spray on strings. The crosses, with the high cof, (less friction with a high number), are teflon infused, but when that teflon wears out, the snap back reduces, and so does the number of balls in, and depth increases due to less rpm. The edged strings, like msv hex, or rpm blast, or bhbr, etc., in a full set, are also high rpm jobs. I believe the best dollar/rpm for the buck is a poly/poly hybrid, a high rpm set in mains, and a high cof/power string in cross, to get the best of both worlds: high rpm coupled with high power we all love.
The gut fibers in main, tend to grab at the ball and dig into it, but when used as a full set, those same fibers produce too much friction for snap back, so the bed causes the ball to sail long too much. When coupled with teflon poly, the gut slides easily, and its own natural fibers also grab at ball in main.
Yesterday I won the pebble beach 55s, singles, and used msv hex 1.10mm/poly star energy 16L cross, in pro stock babolat roddick pure drive gt +, leaded and siliconed frames. Deadly spin, yet, high power and control. I came into net about 60 times a match, and broke opponents serves 11 out of 17 serve games. I held 80%. (Got to work on my serve still.) Good pop on volleys, yet, huge spin to pass/kick serves, and deadly rpms the old guys had not seen before.
I hit some awesome volleys (missed too many), one on a half volley break point against me, that was at my back hand ankles, and drove it cross court short angle for a net skimming deadly paced winner off the inside edge short porch.
Another, on a kick serve hit my me out wide, and the opp. sliced a very good return, down the line, which I had to sprint out full steam to reach, as it was heading for line, and got to the ball low, yet, absolutely killed it about 60 mph cross court 30 feet away from the guy. An open level match was playing right next to us, and the guys clapped, and the pakistani guy said, "Nice volley." I've never had any open guy take time out of his own match, during play, and say anything about my shots in my life! He said it because he knew he could not have hit that shot himself.
The main reason why serve/volley is gone is this: It's harder to learn and takes way more skill to hit shots at your ankles than it takes to hit them after the ball bounces and slows down to half speed. When the ball doesn't bounce, the ground has no chance to slow it down, so even slow balls at net can move faster than groundies that have bounced! Easy to jam yourself when you have half the time to hit the shots.
Net play is all about the reps at net in attacking mode, not just sitting there as you are fed easy balls you will never see in a match. It's for the explosive and fast players, who are able to keep their balance when stretched out wide, who are able to split step low for faster lateral movement, who are able to stomp on their volleys, eat their volleys, with short punches off ready position out front, who are able to "catch" their forehand volleys with non dom arm out front in line with frame hand so that they are coiled non dom. shoulder at ball contact, even if hips are open, shoulders are not on fh.
There's nothing like hitting a deadly volley for a blazing winner 30 feet away from the opponent. Hitting a great groundie passing shot is like it a little, but easier, so it's not as satisfying.
When I practice volleys, its only while I serve and volley, so I only face real time shots, hit by players trying to kill me, not feed me. Can't tell you how many times I've seen the ball go past me in an hours time of serving practice. LIke sweat off your brow, you wipe the last shot from memory. Got to have a short term memory for volley play. You are going to be passed. You are going to be broken. You are going to be beaten by guys who can't volley. Short term memory. Sampras lost 19 times in a row as junior when he switched to a one hander serve volley game. How many of us out there would have lost confidence and quit the game?
The truth is, this site is for those who want to improve, and who care more about that, than winning.
Whether you turn the corner on a shot or a style or a form or a technique, or an emotion or equipment, it's all freedom of choice, freedom of will, freedom of intention and energy and desire to improve, and the wins only are a resulting effect, not the journey with your family that it took to get to the vacation spot.Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-22-2012, 08:54 AM. -
GW,
Awesome win at Peeble Beach 55s! I know how tough those 55 guys are cause they used to kick my ass in the 45s... Way to go.
JYComment
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I thought I was going to win the mill valley tournament, and had six set points against Virgin, but he psyched me, and I got a calf pull. He said, "You have to play to my pace!", as I was wiping sweat off my brow, on a hot day and sunscreen burning my eyes.
I should have said, "I have 20 seconds regardless, and the sweat is burning my eyes with sunscreen." So I let him rush me, and lost the match due to that, instead of sticking to the towel.Comment
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A bit of advice...
Take it for what it's worth. If you are playing in the 55 and over crowd if you have the choice between hitting a screaming winner out of reach of your aging opponent and hitting one that is just within his grasp that he might make a lunging effort at it, only to barely get the ball back to you so that you might send another volley to some other remote part of the court in order that he might just barely reach it, only to send yet another weak effort back at you so that you might...well you get the picture. Now that is satisfaction...keeping your opponent in a point that he has no chance of winning and putting some mileage on his limits of endurance. Make him run that 30 feet and then make him run it again if you can.Originally posted by geoffwilliams View Post
Torture him...death by a thousand cuts. Make sure that at the end of the match you have taken his legs out from under him so that when you reach match point he is wobbling in front of you almost begging you to end it and you have only to take that Head racquet out once more from it's sheath with all of that wonderful stringing...to apply the loving and sweet coup de gras. Then kindly shake his hand and don't forget to say something nice. Just a thought! There is nothing like torturing your opponent by just hitting the ball out of his reach or just having him barely reaching it, only to pop it back up to you. Winners are great but the real joy is in seeing your opponent stretched to his limits...over and over.
It really sounds like you are having a ball, you are like a kid in a candy shop...keep up the good work and congratulations!
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I don't like long matches, so I hit a lot of winners to shorten them. Too old and fat for grinding, although I do see the advantage of hitting three slow balls and one fast one. I do it to disguise my true game. All the pros do it. None of these guys match my power, but some are good at the net, usually with touch and drops, not the power volleys I can lay down. I've never played anyone that can hit a volley 85mph.Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-24-2012, 08:26 AM.Comment
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Surface, surface, surface
Sadly, without the fast hard courts or quick grass courts, the serve and volley is going to suffer. Note that even with many professional doubles teams that the serve and volley is being left out...ironically, I am seeing a rise in the serve and volley game with the club and recreational player who, after spending many years trying to emulate the top player's ground stroke games, now realize that a serve and volley game is very productive. Since the club level or recreational player makes up about 99% of our tennis population, you could say statistically, that the serve and volley game is making a tremendous comeback...Comment
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There was a lot of pressure to slow down courts when edber/becker/mcenroe were dominating the game. Sponsors were upset that not enough people were watching. Points did not last long. Bam, bam thank you ma'am did not sit well with them. Now, that all the courts are slow, and the ball is also slowed down, it will not turn around.. Equipment also advanced, bigger frames, spin string, snap back was figured out. Technique evolved to kill serve and volley. Even if they speed up the courts and balls, the fact remains, that the tech. and equip. will still dominate from the baseline. If I were Isner, I'd be in on every serve. like Sampras. All those popped up returns, sliced, blocked, and he just sits back there stupidly.
The average frame size now is 98 sq. in. Imagine what Gonzales would have done with a 98 sq. in. frame. He won over 40 titles inbetween 1952-1957. Laver won 38 in 1966-1969. Laver was the first server who could hit the line at match point down.Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-28-2012, 11:16 AM.Comment
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I disagree
I disagree. There are plenty of big servers out there. I go to Wimbledon every year and watch big servers stay back when they could have ventured in behind their serve and had a ball five feet above the net to stick away. It works both ways. Volleys and serves have become more powerful not just ground shots - so everything gets equalled out. No, it's the art of approaching and volleying that has been lost...nothing else.
We need a longer grass court season, that would help. The thing is most of the tour coaches are in their 30's and 40's so too young to have watched volleying done properly, at it's best. So how can they know how to coach it.
Last edited by stotty; 10-28-2012, 01:27 PM.StottyComment
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If that were true, then there would be more serve/volley winners. Stepanek? Lopez? Does anyone see Isner becoming a serve/volleyer? Maybe the next gen ser/vol guy will be one who uses swing volleys on low balls, and a uni grip full western at the net. This last gen of players killed off anyone coming in, for a lot of reasons. Serves are more powerful, not volleys. Watch old school volleying and you will see that their volleys were their fastest shots.Comment
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Can It Happen?...Will monkeys fly out of your butt in the morning?-Madonna
Originally posted by RodHeckelman View PostOriginally posted by licensedcoach View PostI disagree. There are plenty of big servers out there. I go to Wimbledon every year and watch big servers stay back when they could have ventured in behind their serve and had a ball five feet above the net to stick away. It works both ways. Volleys and serves have become more powerful not just ground shots - so everything gets equalled out. No, it's the art of approaching and volleying that has been lost...nothing else.
We need a longer grass court season, that would help. The thing is most of the tour coaches are in their 30's and 40's so too young to have watched volleying done properly, at it's best. So how can they know how to coach it.Good question(s)...and one that I have refrained from participating in so far. Call it a strategic pause. I hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Any sort of serious return will take years...it is not like retooling a factory for next years model. It took almost forty years to arrive the game at its present state.Originally posted by geoffwilliams View Post
The best that could happen? Revolution. Clear and simple. They stole the game back in the mid 1970's. Howard Head, the USTA and the equipment manufacturers. Throw in a high profile coach. The solution...take it back. How? I am not that smart. che_guevera I am not...I am only don_budge.
The next best thing. Talk about it. Discuss it. Honestly and openly. This website has begun to do just that. I applaud you for the effort to educate the masses. The articles of the past couple of months speak of change and wistful thinking. Volleys, approaches, opportunities...and now serve and volleying. All lost integral parts of the game and this is very sad. It was worth fighting for way back then but unfortunately everyone was too high on their instant ability to improve their tennis games with the purchase of a new tennis racquet.
If one would aspire to being in the Tennis Hall of Fame these days it may behooves one to create a dramatic change for the better. Recruit some powerful allies that want to see the right thing done. Then again if one has high aspirations you have to be careful not to rub the people in charge the wrong way. Another reason it is not going to happen.
Rod...wonderful article. You scratch the surface...it is what is needed to be done. People are still drunk on topspin forehands and two hand backhands. There is and was much more to the game. It has been lost.
Get it back? Not in the near future. Surface, surface and surface like the real estate mantra location, location and location bodes ill for serve and volley. Stotty hits the nail on the head too. Who is going to teach it? Besides the volleys and approaches, who will teach the service motion? Don't forget the tactics which are a book in itself. No small wonder most players wouldn't even think of following their serve to the net. The motions are not conducive to that. Hit like hell and retreat behind the baseline. Strong grips don't encourage full court play either...the closer you get to the net, the weaker the grip. Coaches these days have bought into the paradigm hook, line and sinker. How could they not? They love tennis too...it is just that what they fell for was a false god. Who can blame them? It's a sign of the times.
It's a long story...and a sad one. Most passionate love stories are. Nobody lives happily ever after anymore. No one here gets out alive. They really made a mess of it...tennis that is. If you are happy with it you are probably too young to know any better.
Reduce the size of the racquet head to 75 square inches. Notice how the size keeps getting smaller with me...I know it isn't going to happen. I have been told so many times on this forum. Don't you think that I don't understand that? I know the score. Can it happen? Highly unlikely. Consider human nature...make that impossible. The impetus is too massive going in the other direction. The virtual reality has created it's own morality...and it too is virtual in nature. Image is everything! It's viral baby!
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Let's do that...Originally posted by don_budge View Post
It's not easy becoming a serve and volley player. We all start our playing lives at the back of the court and without encouragement it's where we'll often stay. We get insecure when we suddenly find ourselves at the net because our starting point for playing tennis for a long time was the baseline...so you have to overcome that.
Even going back years, there were more baseliners than net players because players even then weren't forward thinking enough to see the benefits. It's so much easier an comforting to stay with what you are familiar with, what you know best.
I had very little coaching when I was young but what I had was quality. I come from the same club as John Lloyd, TV commentator and former British number one. John was coached by his father and mother who were tennis fanatics. Dennis, John's father, would sometimes coach other kids in the club of which I was one. Dennis was convinced serve and volley was they way to play because he felt pressurising opponents to make passing shots made their risk factor higher than yours, especially towards the end of a set on the big points. It's one thing pulling off a tough passing shot at 2-2 and quite another at 4-5, 30-40.
Being it was Dennis telling us this we followed his words to the letter. He told us to sacrifice a season or two to learn the art of serve and volley. He told us it would take time...and time and time again we would get passed until we learned to how move well at the net, how read the game, how to close down the angles. He was right. We all lost for ages...but persevered...and eventually became really good serve and volley players.
Dennis was right, you have to sacrifice one game to learn another. Bill Tilden said exactly the same think 70 years ago.
The problem these days is no one is prepared to lose for a given time while they learn the art of volleying and approaching the net. Parents of juniors want to see their child's rating increase....kids want to see it increase too. A lot of coaches would get fired if they told their young charges to storm the net...
Out of time...off to work....that's enough to be going on with....fascinating thread...wrote this thread in one sitting with no proofreading...hope it's legible...couldn't resist to write before going to work after seeing don_budge's post today.StottyComment
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The reason why serve/volley is so difficult is two fold. If your serve does not have some mystery to it, a good returner will lock down on it and begin to hit winners and shots at your ankles, and force you to over close the net.
The other reason has to do with the variety of shots you have to learn to defend against, and hit, both with half the time you have at the baseline.
You have to learn to follow the ball on its angle, and watch not your opponent, but his frame to glean the pass.
You have to learn to half volley, to low volley, to high volley, all low and away from you, and once you hit your shot, make sure it's low and away from your opponent.
You have to learn touch drops off same look power drives.
You have to learn to transition mostly dtl, not cc, due to the fact the opp. has 15% less distance to pass dtl, and you have 15% more land to cover getting to a dtl pass. So the cc transition or first volley, had better be 30% more effective, than a dtl shot. Look at Roddick, and all those pathetic cc approaches he made.
You have to learn over heads, both back pedaling, let them bounce, and back hand oh.
You have to learn to back up, on shots at your ankles, and overcome your forward momentum, and take them off bounce, harder than it looks.
I started to learn to volley when I was about 30, when a local player said, "He's big, he's strong, and he doesn't come in at all! Why not hit a strong serve and come in?" : Peter Sharkey
Later on I played him on a hot day, about 104 degrees. I won 6-4, 6-4, and he dropped dead that night of a heart attack! Sometimes, tennis kills us. Lots of guys I knew on the court are dead now, drowning, heart, diabetes, etc. The cost of aging is watching things you love die.Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 10-29-2012, 08:41 AM.Comment
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nostalgia
Hi Everyone,
I wanted to clarify one thing about why I wrote the article. It had nothing to do with nostalgia for a long dead style of game. It was more about the mind of a champion and what he/she brings to the game. I appreciate all great champions of our great game. I enjoy watching this game whether it is a battle of baseliners or a battle of serve-volleyers. We all know how difficult this game can be to do well. As a player and coach I continue to marvel at how good a great champion is whether he does it at the baseline or at the net. Will a new champion 5 years from now change the game again pushing the limits of athleticism to an even higher level? Only time will tell.
Good luck
Kerry Mitchell.Comment
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