The Serve Set Up and Stance

[julian1]

ACL and the front foot

I prefer teaching to slightly different stances in both courts. For the righty, the front foot is pointed more with the back foot parallel to help with the slice serve. IN the ad court the front foot is more parallel and the back foot turned out slightly to help with topspin.

The more parallel foot in the add court affects the ACL in the negative way
Obviously "the devil" is in the parsing the phrase "more parallel"

[stotty]

?

The more parallel foot in the add court affects the ACL in the negative way
Obviously "the devil" is in the parsing the phrase "more parallel"

What does ACL mean please?

[don_budge]

Acl...

What does ACL mean please?

anterior cruciate ligament...one of the four major ligaments in the knee.

[julian1]

Which tablet do you use?

Video kept breaking up & then gave an error message - tried it a couple of times with same results. Might be a problem with using tablet, don't know.

Which tablet do you use?

[tennis_chiro]

Point the damn artillery at the target!

I don't understand all the confusion. Don_budge's alignment description just about has it. If we were to take a look at pitchers in the major leagues or quarterbacks in the NFL (not to mention golfers on the PGA tour), foot alignment prior to delivering a force to a ball under your own control (not a ball being hit to or away from you), especially in an overhead motion is pretty well set in stone. No quarterback in the NFL, regardless of his success in college, is going to be allowed to set up and throw with anything but the square stance they have found to be a requirement for success in that league. Tennis is an individual sport. We have a stick in our hand which makes things a little less obvious. But if you are going to look at Sampras or other great servers as examples, be sure you look at the right things.

Take a good look at Pete's right foot position when it delivers its last bit of force to the ground in our high speed slow motion archive:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?PeteSampras1stServe.mov

Just before his right toe leaves the ground, that toe is in the age-old classic position: a line through the toes, ankles, knees points essentially in the same direction as a line to the middle of the service box. It's the same on every serve so as not to give away which corner Pete is serving to, but it is a constant guide for him to align his shot from. For my description of where I want that right foot, I want the right toe on that line through the left toe to the middle of the box. The position of the foot at the beginning changes slightly depending on whether you start back like Pete or rock front to back to front like Krajicek or Stich; but essentially when the back foot comes down, it needs to be perpendicular to this line I am talking about. So it is not really parallel to the baseline.

Now, as for deuce vs ad boxes, simply imagine the server standing on a circular turntable. Imagine the server like a piece of artillery aimed at a target, the middle of the service box in this case. When I move the server over to the ad court, I want that piece of artillery to be rotated on that turntable so the line is accordingly rotated over to the middle of the ad service box. The problem is with the visual reference markers which must be disregarded. The lines the server must pay attention to are the imaginary ones in his mind as opposed to the baseline at his feet and the net which are at a different angle when he serves to the ad court as opposed to the deuce court. If he is influenced by the different angles of the baseline and the net in his kinesthetic imagery, it will negatively impact his ability to serve equally well to deuce and ad courts. Players will always have preferences and the movement of the ball with slice spins creates actual advantages and disadvantages for right or left handers to either side (righties slice wide to the deuce, lefties to the ad), but a good player must be able to create an image in his mind of what he is doing that allows him to serve almost as well to either side.

But the idea that the stance is the same for deuce and ad courts is ridiculous. However, it is the same when viewed relative to that imaginary line to the middle of the box. In fact, it should be the same even if you have inappropriately decided to adopt a very closed, open or otherwise what I would consider inappropriate stance. Either way, you still need to rotate the artillery's turntable until the weapon is pointed into the middle of the target area.

don

[julian1]

Swivel

Doesn't seem right does it? Standing in exactly the same position to serve in what can be vastly different directions? I've often asked the same question to myself. I teach the same stance for both ad and deuce boxes. I've never been convinced I'm teaching the right thing. There must be some kind of micro, imperceptible difference where the feet are concerned?

Do you swivel the same way on the add side as on the deuce side?

[don_budge]

Minutia in the Sampras Serve...and "Zen in the Art of Serving"!

I don't understand all the confusion. Don_budge's alignment description just about has it. If we were to take a look at pitchers in the major leagues or quarterbacks in the NFL (not to mention golfers on the PGA tour), foot alignment prior to delivering a force to a ball under your own control (not a ball being hit to or away from you), especially in an overhead motion is pretty well set in stone. No quarterback in the NFL, regardless of his success in college, is going to be allowed to set up and throw with anything but the square stance they have found to be a requirement for success in that league. Tennis is an individual sport. We have a stick in our hand which makes things a little less obvious. But if you are going to look at Sampras or other great servers as examples, be sure you look at the right things.

Take a good look at Pete's right foot position when it delivers its last bit of force to the ground in our high speed slow motion archive:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?PeteSampras1stServe.mov

Just before his right toe leaves the ground, that toe is in the age-old classic position: a line through the toes, ankles, knees points essentially in the same direction as a line to the middle of the service box. It's the same on every serve so as not to give away which corner Pete is serving to, but it is a constant guide for him to align his shot from. For my description of where I want that right foot, I want the right toe on that line through the left toe to the middle of the box. The position of the foot at the beginning changes slightly depending on whether you start back like Pete or rock front to back to front like Krajicek or Stich; but essentially when the back foot comes down, it needs to be perpendicular to this line I am talking about. So it is not really parallel to the baseline.

Now, as for deuce vs ad boxes, simply imagine the server standing on a circular turntable. Imagine the server like a piece of artillery aimed at a target, the middle of the service box in this case. When I move the server over to the ad court, I want that piece of artillery to be rotated on that turntable so the line is accordingly rotated over to the middle of the ad service box. The problem is with the visual reference markers which must be disregarded. The lines the server must pay attention to are the imaginary ones in his mind as opposed to the baseline at his feet and the net which are at a different angle when he serves to the ad court as opposed to the deuce court. If he is influenced by the different angles of the baseline and the net in his kinesthetic imagery, it will negatively impact his ability to serve equally well to deuce and ad courts. Players will always have preferences and the movement of the ball with slice spins creates actual advantages and disadvantages for right or left handers to either side (righties slice wide to the deuce, lefties to the ad), but a good player must be able to create an image in his mind of what he is doing that allows him to serve almost as well to either side.

But the idea that the stance is the same for deuce and ad courts is ridiculous. However, it is the same when viewed relative to that imaginary line to the middle of the box. In fact, it should be the same even if you have inappropriately decided to adopt a very closed, open or otherwise what I would consider inappropriate stance. Either way, you still need to rotate the artillery's turntable until the weapon is pointed into the middle of the target area.

don

A really in depth and accurate analysis of a minute detail...but an important one in the serving process. Aiming or Alignment. Artillery...how about shooting a rifle? A bow and arrow...Zen in the Art of Archery. This post is a must read for tennis players and perhaps more importantly...coaches.

You are right tennis_chiro...the back foot is not necessarily parallel to the baseline if we were talking mathematics. It is perpendicular to the line at the end of the toes. For right handers, slightly turned in to the deuce and slightly turned out to the ad...ala Jeff give or take.

In my teaching model I teach exactly what you were referring to in the Sampras motion. When the student gets to a certain point in the motion, perhaps just before the racquet begins to fall...there is the line of the shoulders lined up with the feet. But as you astutely observe everything lines up again later on in the motion, in the back scratch position around frame 12. That's interesting enough to point out to a student to get them to understand and appreciate a bit about the aiming process.

More and more I am coming to appreciate this service lesson from Jeff. The conversation that ensued has been very thoughtful. Looking forward to the rest, Jeff. Good lessons...like good conversations are thought provoking for the tennis student and the teacher. The energy must be flowing in both directions.

[don_budge]

Hang 'em...and weep.

I think the thing that I got out of this was the point that both stances were set up to create relaxation in the arms--and yeah of course you want to be relaxed. Jeff just connected the dots in a way that hadn't exactly occured to me. I have adapted that slightly different Federer stance myself--love the feeling in really letting those arms hnag!

Not to be overlooked in this discussion. The hanging sensation...ultimately necessary in initiating a true "swinging motion" and not setting up for the hit. That arm has to swing up into position and the only way that is going to happen is if it is "hanging" from the shoulder and prepped to swing. Creating relaxation. Both of the models of Sampras and Federer have this built into their setup position.

Once the student is in position and aiming correctly it is about teaching the backswing. If you can get the tennis student to rock or bob the structure of the two arms and the racquet twice before initiating the backswing it helps to serve as a waggle...instead of initiating the motion from a static position. I can't wait for the next part of the lesson! It's high time we gave some attention to the service motion in detail. Pay attention...alexandrafranco. I know that you are being the tennis student that you are.

[julian1]

Optimized for serve and volley

A quote from tennis_chiro
----->
The position of the foot at the beginning changes slightly depending on whether you start back like Pete or rock front to back to front like Krajicek or Stich; but essentially when the back foot comes down, it needs to be perpendicular to this line I am talking about. So it is not really parallel to the baseline.
------>
I agree
The serve of Sampras is optimized to provide a horizontal thrust
(for serve and volley)
The swivel brings him to a position which is NOT parallel to the baseline

[julian1]

Kevin Anderson

I don't understand all the confusion. Don_budge's alignment description just about has it. If we were to take a look at pitchers in the major leagues or quarterbacks in the NFL (not to mention golfers on the PGA tour), foot alignment prior to delivering a force to a ball under your own control (not a ball being hit to or away from you), especially in an overhead motion is pretty well set in stone. No quarterback in the NFL, regardless of his success in college, is going to be allowed to set up and throw with anything but the square stance they have found to be a requirement for success in that league. Tennis is an individual sport. We have a stick in our hand which makes things a little less obvious. But if you are going to look at Sampras or other great servers as examples, be sure you look at the right things.

Take a good look at Pete's right foot position when it delivers its last bit of force to the ground in our high speed slow motion archive:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?PeteSampras1stServe.mov

Just before his right toe leaves the ground, that toe is in the age-old classic position: a line through the toes, ankles, knees points essentially in the same direction as a line to the middle of the service box. It's the same on every serve so as not to give away which corner Pete is serving to, but it is a constant guide for him to align his shot from. For my description of where I want that right foot, I want the right toe on that line through the left toe to the middle of the box. The position of the foot at the beginning changes slightly depending on whether you start back like Pete or rock front to back to front like Krajicek or Stich; but essentially when the back foot comes down, it needs to be perpendicular to this line I am talking about. So it is not really parallel to the baseline.

Now, as for deuce vs ad boxes, simply imagine the server standing on a circular turntable. Imagine the server like a piece of artillery aimed at a target, the middle of the service box in this case. When I move the server over to the ad court, I want that piece of artillery to be rotated on that turntable so the line is accordingly rotated over to the middle of the ad service box. The problem is with the visual reference markers which must be disregarded. The lines the server must pay attention to are the imaginary ones in his mind as opposed to the baseline at his feet and the net which are at a different angle when he serves to the ad court as opposed to the deuce court. If he is influenced by the different angles of the baseline and the net in his kinesthetic imagery, it will negatively impact his ability to serve equally well to deuce and ad courts. Players will always have preferences and the movement of the ball with slice spins creates actual advantages and disadvantages for right or left handers to either side (righties slice wide to the deuce, lefties to the ad), but a good player must be able to create an image in his mind of what he is doing that allows him to serve almost as well to either side.

But the idea that the stance is the same for deuce and ad courts is ridiculous. However, it is the same when viewed relative to that imaginary line to the middle of the box. In fact, it should be the same even if you have inappropriately decided to adopt a very closed, open or otherwise what I would consider inappropriate stance. Either way, you still need to rotate the artillery's turntable until the weapon is pointed into the middle of the target area.

don

Greetings,
Just a small note about Kevin Anderson.
his front foot is ALMOST parallel to the baseline on the deuce side at the
very BEGINNING of the serve motion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjCoyKvyhY0

Some points should be in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGNVJ5ZRiBY&feature=related

PS A small snippet from his bio
He used to play tennis as well as competitively run 800 metre races... Played collegiately at University of Illinois for three seasons (2005-07)...Won 2006 NCAA doubles title...Reached 2007 NCAA singles semifinals and doubles final...Also reached 2007 team final...Earned All-American honors all three years...