For alexandrafranco...Thoughts on the Service Motion

[stotty]

Racket speed

PART 10
If you miss the first, you swing at the second harder and with more spin because you know that it is statistically impossible to miss two in a row.

don_budge, would this be fact with a great server, or even just a good one? I always tell students (those accomplished enough) to swing as fast on their second as they do on their first serve, but just impart more spin. I was taught at coaching school that swinging slower on the second could lead to rhythm loss, causing the first serve to rarely go in and so be left constantly relying on the second.

When I was young I played lots of matches. Tennis meant a lot to me and I would more than occasionally get nervous. At such nervous moments I remember swinging faster on second serves to get loads of spin...and at the same time (in a strange way) give me courage. There was something about pumping more spin in the serve that stopped me crumbling like a digestive biscuit.

I've often wondered about the difference in racket speed with top players on their first and second serves...whether it's equal, greater, or perhaps even less. Any thoughts, don_budge...tennis_chiro...or anyone else?

[GeoffWilliams]

I'll bet Yandell already knows that answer with video. And I would say head speed is identical. Just striking a side of the ball rather than flat on. Frame speed is what separates servers. Just how do you get the most frame speed without changing what you are doing? Most can get about 50% more speed than they currently generate, with coaching/training/intention/form changes. Takes courage to do something totally different, than what you are locked into. How many of you out there have that courage? Not many.

[don_budge]

It's all about confidence...

don_budge, would this be fact with a great server, or even just a good one?

This is of course one of the most important questions in the game of tennis. The question of the second serve. Since a chain is only as strong as its weakest link it certainly doesn't pay to have a creampuff for a second serve or even a much lesser version of your first serve. Especially the way that players are jumping on the return these days. You must force the issue even with the second serve.

It takes a perfect motion to feel that confident about a second serve particularly in a pressure situation...at an important point in the finals of a tournament or even just competition for that matter. Once you have that perfect motion you believe that there is no way that you will miss that second. This is also why it is important to miss long on the first and not in the net. Somehow knowing that you have missed long is more comforting and less distressing. You know that all that you have to do is add more spin to the identical swing and you will compensate for you error. That same perfect motion give you the confidence that you can repeat that same identical swing under any circumstances.

I think that this has been one of the biggest improvements in the game of a resurgent Andy Murray that we have seen since his loss at Wimbledon. His toss seems to have navigated itself out to the right and further into the court. Andy seems to be leaning into the court at full stretch. He doesn't seem to miss nearly as often in the net and therefore he has enabled himself into taking the same hefty swing at the second ball as he does on the first. We have only to witness the results. This has generated more confidence into the rest of his game and particularly his service return game. Against Djokovic he was taking virtually every single second serve return inside the baseline and converting on 81% of his attempts...it was much the same against Federer.

This also indicated to me that neither Djokovic or Federer were serving that great on their second balls if Murray could be so aggressive on their second serve. Federer has the excuse of the long layoff and not being so sharp...at one point he double faulted three times in a row which is virtually unheard of and Robbie Koenig said as much. That may of even dented the supreme confidence of Federer. These guys are subject to their emotions as well. They are only human too. It is a confidence game in the end and if you are not serving full machine on the second ball then the feelings of discomfort creep in and that is a recipe for trouble...often the reason for a defeat can be specifically traced to poor serving. You cannot afford to be tentative.

Once you have trained that perfect motion...and once you fully understand the tactics and their implications, you acquire a bit of a zen like state. Then you are a serving machine and fear is not a factor. Get set...aim...fire...bullseye. Zen in the Art of Archery. Eric Herrigel.

I'll bet Yandell already knows that answer with video.

I will bet that he knows that answer or knows how to get it, too.

[don_budge]

Suspended animation...

Can't believe we went through all that.

Alexandra, just recognize that "G" went through this progression over a period of months, not days or weeks, hitting thousands of balls, and under the watchful eyes of Stotty all the while. So, take your time and find another pair of eyes to help you with your journey.

don

To me that looks terrific. I think you are wise to leave it alone for a while. That's amazing progress since the beginning of the month in, what, less than 3 weeks. Great work for both of you!!

don
PS If someone had done this for Berdych when he was G's age, no one would even be able to get a whiff on his service games!!

It may of seemed like months...of course the end product and the one that is etched in stone may take months but it is really amazing that the progress that G made was in approximately three weeks. It was really a tremendous team effort as when I reread that thread it brought back the memory of a very rewarding experience for all of us. I am curious as to what it looks like now as a matter of fact...now that you mention it.

That was an interesting comment that tennis_chiro made about Berdych...and it makes me wonder if the same thing could not be said for many of the pro's today. geoffwilliams makes pretty much the same observation in post #14 when he says..."Millions of players all over the world are crushing the ball off ground, and only a few are serving like that". Perhaps American tennis could take a cue from these comments and start reemphasizing the perfect service motion as one of the prerequisites on the road to being a champion...or at least of being a contender.

[don_budge]

Building the Serve from scratch...Starting with Oscar Wegner

I am not certain if this will help you alexandrafranco...this is a thread from the past. I incorporate some of the rather simple ideas of Oscar Wegner video to build a 4 step teaching model...

The service motion is every bit as complicated as a golf swing. In fact, in some respects it resembles an upside down golf swing because instead of the climax occurring at the bottom of the swing, it occurs at the top. What makes it even more complicated than the golf swing is the fact that we must toss the ball into position instead of teeing it up.

Every good golfer spends unlimited time evaluating, constantly retooling and practicing their swing. How much time and effort do we invest in perfect service motion technique and instruction? Whatever it is...I suggest it probably is not enough.

Faced with this daunting task of trying to teach a beginner student the service motion from scratch...the million dollar question is how do we arrive at the final product so that some other coach does not have to clean up the mess that we have created.

I have been thinking about this for some time now...for a couple of reasons. One is due to some of the questions that have been posted on this forum. Another is because, from my point of view there are some really bad service motions on the professional level. Lastly, and most importantly, I want to emphasis the service motion in teaching my students the game of tennis. I have attempted to come up with a model to steer that student in the proper direction towards the goal of the "perfect service motion". My model is a 4 step exercise that begins at the service line in Step 1, ala Wegner, and culminates on the baseline in Step 4...with Gonzales or Navarro.

Step 1...Oscar Wegner on the serve from scratch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZ9dTikAXw&feature=related

From the Service Line...

1. First introduce the idea of aiming with a proper setup. The serve must go into the service court. Begin with throwing...perhaps at two targets in each of the courts. Aiming begins with the setup position and we begin with the setup here by lining up the feet to create a line at the end of the toes to the target and the racquet pointing at the target.

2. Hammer grip...the student must be introduced to the serve with the correct grip so we begin with something that at the very least...resembles continental. Start with the edge of the racquet towards the ball.

3. Both hands go up together and “open” the wrist (therefore the racquet) or some call it pronation...and with a short backswing push the ball towards the target. The longer you keep the edge towards the ball the more spin it will produce. Introduce both hands working together and spin.

4. A small step forwards into the court with the back foot...to introduce weight transfer.

Step 2 to follow...stay tuned.

[don_budge]

Location of Steps... Step 2

Step 2...Moving the Student back to the baseline and building on the motion

I tried to show a visual representation of the court here but the locations of Step 2 and Step 3 were not possible for me to put in the place where I wanted them. The two "x's" in the two steps from the service line back towards the baseline were attempted to be placed approximately 1 meter to the left and the right of the middle service hash mark (represented by the ---l---) and equal distance back to the base line from the service line. Anyways...you get the picture. I hope.


-----------x----l----x-----------Step 1 (service line)


- - - - - - x - - - - -x - - - - - -Step 2


- - - - - - x - - - - -x - - - - - -Step 3


-----------x----l----x----------- Step 4 (base line)

Step 2...Continuation of Oscar Wegner and further development of grip and stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rZ9dTikAXw&feature=related

1. Moving the student further from the net on the way back to the baseline is the next step. Working on the same things that Step 1 encompasses we move the hand down to the middle of the grip. At the same time we are moving the student further from the net we are working their hand down the racquet to a "normal" grip on the handle.

2. We now shift the weight slightly forward in their setup position...gradually getting the chest over the front foot and lowering the position of the racquet a bit from the original starting position that Oscar demonstrates...so that it is pointing directly at the target on line with the feet.

3. Now both hands make a small bobbing movement where they initially go down just a bit before they are lifted into position to go forward to meet the ball. The hands go down together, then up together.

4. Now with the step into the court as the student makes their short swing the racquet finishes on the opposite side of the body...left side for right handers. Back foot swinging into the court.

Do you see where we are going with this? Incrementally? Try to anticipate Step 3.

[don_budge]

Beyond Oscar...The Throwing Position or the Forward Swing

Step 3...Throwing the racquet at the ball with a forward swing

Moving the student further back towards the baseline to Step 3 position.

1. The grip remains in the middle of the handle with the "V" of the index finger and thumb on the top bevel of the racquet closest to the player. Further explore the opening or the "pronation" of the wrist and experiment a bit with the fully opened wrist or partially opened wrist to feel the application of spin or flatter ball.

2. Further scrutiny of the stance and setup...initially leaning with the weight and chest over the front foot, always checking the position of the feet and the racquet to emphasize the process of aiming.

3. Now...with the same bobbing motion repeated twice the racquet is lifted directly with the arm in throwing position and the shoulders have made a full turn. A full turn, that is, little by little as the student gets comfortable with the turning motion. This motion of getting the arm in throwing position directly out of the setup position gets the student used to turning and lifting at the same time.

4. A full throwing motion is used to swing the racquet at the ball using a fuller transfer of weight and bigger follow through past the side of the body as well. The back foot swings into the court following the racquet. We should begin to see better synchronization of the hands working together as well.

Incrementally we have gotten the student to develop some of the skills that will be absolutely necessary if the possibility of a perfect service motion is in their future. We are certainly giving them all of the possibilities.

Step 4...The Cobra Strikes!

[don_budge]

Birthing Gonzales...The Backswing

Step 4...The Model is Gonzales and the whole Enchilada

From Steps 1-3 we have began to develop the skills and the relevant related motions that will be the final product of building the structure for the perfect service motion. By emphasizing these fundamentals at the beginning we eliminate the necessity of trying to salvage something of less value down the road. It's all about the backswing...getting in position to go forward. For Step 4 we move back to the baseline.

1. The Setup and Grip...after considerable practice the student now is ready to approach the final vision of the service motion with a proper setup and grip. By practicing steps 1 through 3 the student automatically comes to their service position with their feet, racquet and body in position to make the moves and motions involved in this most complex of motions. Simply...the feet create a line to the target and the racquet is laying on this same line in a relaxed position about waist high pointed with deliberate fixation.

2. The Backswing...is initiated with a bobbing motion in which the whole body is subtly engaged in...Ben Hogan would call this the "waggle" and it sets the tone for the entire motion. The hands go slightly up together and down together and the body is gently following the same rhythm in preparation for the turning and lifting motion. The arm is in a loosely knitted "L" position and slightly bent at the elbow. As the bobbing motion goes into the down phase the body and arm merely follow, allowing the racquet to drop at free fall speed. When the racquet reaches the bottom of it's arch on the way back the shoulders are in line with the feet and at this point everything is lifted up to the point where the racquet can begin its descent behind the back. The arm and racquet at this point are more or less in the same position as in the setup position. This is the result of a service specific unit turn in the service motion. The proper tension in the hand and grip are very important in this phase of the swing and I demonstrate this tension by putting my hand over their hand and "helping" them to swing the racquet up into position. I find that this help gives them a sense of the speed and tension that are necessary to get everything into position to go into the forward motion. The tension is just enough to hold everything in position.

3. The Back Scratch...as the racquet falls behind the back the shoulders continue to turn. I hold my students back in this position and ask the question..."Where are we?". My answer to my own question is this...we are at Step 3 where we lifted the racquet directly back and behind us from the setup position.

4. Endless Evaluation...at this point the real work begins but at least we have clarified some rather significant issues to the student. We have at least introduced the importance of setup and grip, the synchronicity of the hands working together, tossing the ball in the right location and the rotation of the body and the backswing. Through the process of trial and error now and with the scrutiny of a Sherlock Holmes...the coach and student are in position to collaborate. It certainly takes a lot of tinkering, but nobody said it was going to be easy...so we try to keep it simple by laying a sound foundation.

It's a long journey from Wegner to Gonzales but by approaching such a complex task in a series of simple logical steps much of the complexity and mystery is eliminated or at least minimized. It becomes manageable. KISS...keep it simple stupid!

[don_budge]

Backscratch Fever!!!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=477&stc=1&d=1326870691

In this thread our friend bottle asks a very interesting question about the rate at which the shoulders are turning and since I didn't know the answer...I answered his question with another question. But here we see that at this position in my motion the shoulders are even with the line of my feet once again.

Me...around 1978 or so. Racquet down around the back of the knees...arm must be relaxed and swinging! Racquet was a Head Guillermo Vilas model, Vilas being a great Argentinean lefty from the past meaning the 1970's...a "tiny" open throat wood model with graphite inlays. The racquet may of been ever so slightly larger than a traditional Jack Kramer or Dunlop Maxply Fort.

[klacr]

Lefty huh?

Backscratch Fever!!!

If only Ted Nugent was a tennis fan. The Motor City Madman could have had a completely different song.

Anyways...

Didn't know you were a lefty don_budge. Love playing lefties!

Your racquet drop position is excellent. Good external rotation.

In my opinion, the serve is the toughest stroke most pros try to teach their students. So many components and variables. But if and when a student gets it, it is a glorious tool in which the rest of their game can flourish.

I'm very careful to give my own feelings, advice and personal struggles on hitting a serve simply for the fact that I've never really had to struggle with it. Incredibly lucky and being tall has its advantages I guess. Yes I teach my students in a specific way but I really want them to focus on being relaxed and having a routine and rhythm.

One of my fellow teaching professional friends who happens to be well under 6 feet tall always jokes that he would never take a serving lesson from someone tall. .

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

sampras motion

sampras serve oh
sampras serve sideways

sampras french open

[GeoffWilliams]

sampras serve

Nothing looks difficult when done by the best. Now this, may be an exception:
ryan harrison against Stakhovsky, aussie open

[don_budge]

Very difficult...

In my opinion, the serve is the toughest stroke most pros try to teach their students. So many components and variables. But if and when a student gets it, it is a glorious tool in which the rest of their game can flourish.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Yeah...I am left handed when I play tennis. But I pitched and played basketball predominately right handed. I guess that sort of explains my preoccupation with mirrors and reverse images. I think that it gives me an advantage when teaching because I am facing the right handed student. Left handers feel a bit funny to me.

I agree with you and maybe that is the reason why so many of the serves on both tours look so "quirky". It takes a lot of patience, doesn't it. It isn't something that you find overnight success with. I am like you...it came easy. When I started playing tennis I would switch the racquet in my hands so that I had two forehands...and up to that point I had done all sports right handed, except batting which I did left handed...which is sort of funny because I play golf right handed (ex 2 handicap have not played in two years), but when my coach went to teach me to serve I served so naturally that he didn't have to do so much with it. For some reason which is not really clear to anyone I decide that it was more natural to serve left handed so I became a left handed tennis player. Don Budge himself put the finishing touches on my delivery which is why I think that I am such a fanatic for perfect motion.

I love to teach the serve and using this progressive approach is helpful. It is a long road to hoe. Many times it is a very long and difficult process. There is a lot of movement going on. But when the student starts to pop that ball...it really feels like success. That's a good feeling for both the teacher and the student...I don't know who gets a bigger kick out of it. Tonight one of the guys started to pop the ball on the serve and I went over to him and gave him a high five. It has been a long process for him and his feeling of accomplishment must feel really good. Know what I mean?

Tonight I had four eleven year olds that I started teaching about a year ago. I had two on the baseline and two waiting back behind the two on the line. I give the command ready position and they all assume the ready position then I say backswing and they all rehearse a backswing, then I say ready position and they get back into ready position...and finally I say serve. Then they rotate their position in clockwise rotation. Every once in so many tries one of them will hit it quite right even if it is more of an accident than anything...but I know that eventually it will iron itself out. It is a matter of hitting a million balls sometimes. Little by little the thing takes shape. You know what...the more that I think about it teaching tennis is kind of a strange occupation. The amount of patience that it takes to teach sometimes reluctant students makes it a bit of a trial sometimes. Especially when the parents start getting brave and want to get involved.

geoffwilliams...I know that Pete Sampras had a great serve but his is a motion that is pretty much his own. Not quite classic enough to teach...but a great motion nevertheless. But I just love that yellow trail that the tip of his racquet makes. That is the rollercoaster track if I have ever seen one.

[stotty]

Perfection

We all have images in our head of the strokes we'd like our students to achieve. More often than not we have to settle for something else.

At the moment I have a moderately talented girl who has just turned 10. She has the most wonderful temperament, calm and patient. I have high hopes of her because she is so attentive and carries out what I ask to the letter. I can work on the shape of her forehand or her serve over and over again in micro detail...she loves it. She's unusual, a freak, most young children are nothing like her. I could achieve perfection with a student like her. I could take her as far as her ability allows.

It all comes down to patience, patience from the student and patience from the coach...lots of it. Without patience and attention to detail we can never achieve the perfection don_budge talks of. The problem is that the coaching process for tour players starts early...maybe as early as six years old. How do you get a six-year old to have that kind of patience and attention span? You can't. You do what you can and hope for the best, hope you can keep adjusting things along the way. That's why there are so many quirky service actions out there. Perhaps the only perfect serves are the ones that just happened naturally, where everything just fell into place by virtue of natural ability or just good fortune.

My serve (which is on a thread in the forum somewhere) is purely self-taught. I watched Nastase serve and thought...hmm...I like that...then set about copying it for myself. No one had camcorders back then so I had to go by internal feel. Obviously what I was attempting was a hopeless task without a playback to see how well I was doing. But subconsciously I took in that Nastase's serve was relaxed, easy and effortless...a lesson in itself....I went on to achieve something just from relaxing and "trying" to be the same as Nastase. The rest was sheer luck, and luckily my serve turned out reliable and accurate. Many coached players don't serve half as well as I do.

How much is down to natural skill and how much is down to coaching would seem unquantifiable. Can a great serve be coached or is it somehow already there to start with? I don't think we can really answer that.

I love the Sampras photos, geoff. Like Goran's, it cannot be imitated. I like Sampras's serve, it's probably the best ever. I find Gonzales' and Federer's more elegant, though. Gonzales had a career average of 72% first serves in. This high statistic is often attributed to him having to keep one foot on the ground.

[GeoffWilliams]

Sampras was only 6'1" and regularly led aces, over 1,000/yr, and averaged 108mph on second serves, us open matches. Most people cannot hit 108 at all. His motion looked smooth and effortless, yet, no one can do it but him. The coil is so extreme, the contact point so far out in front, more in front than anyone else.. Looks simple, but go ahead and try it. I can't do it even after filming him since 1989 philly indoor.

Hsi frame weighed about 389g. Six strips of lead at 3 and 9. HIs back arches weirdly, for a long time in motion. His shoulder stops at top and elbow just snaps over with forearm in a "bar" with frame. His lever arm is longer due to that bar. His coil with back to net and chest to rear fence is unmatched. His knee bend drops him down 18". His shoulder attain a near 90 degree angle with the ground on both coil and uncoil/contact positions. His elbow is extremely high, due to the extreme back arch. He uses a double V arm/elbow position, first at external shoulder coil (all the way towards the net), and then over his head at 11 oclock contact, far more left than most ever achieved. He jams his shoulders into a "coin parking meter slot" forwards, from their rearward coil position. Most cannot even duplicate his trophy pos. it is so extreme, yet, when he does it, looks easy, not a single effort. He moves from 30-90 mph in the last 2/1000th of a second of his motion just before contact in frame speed. That's what you call, "Vicious whip lash" as he described it in his autobiography. Due to the serve, he got a lot of pop up volleys, so did not get credit for being a great volleyer that he was.