Interactive Forum: October 2012 - Juan Martin Del Potro Forehand

[johnyandell]

Juan Martin Del Potro: Inside Forehands

This month in the Interactive Forum we take a look at two inside forehands of Juan Martin Del Potro--one inside in and the second inside out--both at 250 frames per second. What do you notice about the timing of the preparation, the shape of the backswing, and the difference in the finishes? The inside in ball is spinning at 2400rpm and the inside out is at 3200rpm. What's the difference?

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

[tennis_chiro]

Inside out is more blow the ball

To me, clearly, JMDP is hitting more through the ball on the inside/in and getting more below the ball for the inside out. I tried counting frames from where the racket head started to change direction at the bottom of his swing, but I couldn't get any clear difference. However, it does seem to me he is dropping much more below the ball on the inside/out shot. If we knew the actual angle of the shot, we could see how much court he had to work with. Perhaps he had to get the ball down quick over a higher net going inside out.

don

[stotty]

Revealing

He is perfectly set up and balanced on the inside in and slightly under duress on the second shot. Nevertheless the gets round the second ball and manages to brake, balance and get his body weight going right through the shot. A lot of my students would be tipping backwards on that one. It's a steeper upward swing on the second shot which I guess would explain the greater rpm's than the inside in shot.

Amazing he keeps a straight arm on the second shot. Seems double bend is never an option with a guys like Del Potro. He's dropping his arm almost vertical to achieve a straight arm contact...amazing. Wouldn't Federer just break at the elbow nicely here? (Lucky old Federer has the best of both worlds with his forehand.)

The preparation is higher on the first shot than the second, well, using his wristband as a reference point it is. I guess this stands to reason as it's a higher ball he's playing on the first shot. Seeing a front view clip of his backswing is revealing...it's much shorter than I thought it was. Because his arm is more outstretched than most players on the backswing, it creates the illusion it's huge. It's not actually going back as far as I thought...not as far as Soderling for example.

His follow through is gigantic compared to the good juniors I teach...I better work on that with my better students..

Forehands don't come much simpler, do they? A straight take back and BANG. If that boy could just move better he'd be more of a threat to the top four.

Lovely clips, John. I go to Wimbledon every year and shoot clips but they never seem to come out anything like yours.

[stroke]

I think Don and Stotty pretty well summed up what is going on with Del Po's FH. He does make it look pretty simple. I feel like he has one of the very best FH's in tennis, just behind Federer and Nadal, right up there with Verdasco.

[don_budge]

It's not blow...it's below!

I couldn't figure out what tennis_chiro was talking about..."inside out is more blow the ball". I thought he may have been referring to that Johnny Depp movie "Blow" as in white powder. I thought what the hell, there's no powder on that ball. But he meant BELOW...now I get it.

And way below Del Potro is on that second ball. Both Stotty and The Donald picked up on it. The angle of that racquet is nearly perpendicular to the ground and that I find amazing. Stop that video when the ball is just outside of the lineman's foot and observe the position of the Del Potro racquet. My dear old coach used to call that golfing the tennis ball...and way back then it was a real no-no. I wonder if that is indicative of anything regarding his going inside out or if it is only a factor of the low ball. I found myself going inside out with my forehand on low balls and using this technique. It was "Del Potroesque"!!! I have noticed Federer in the exact same position with his racquet.

I wonder if we could or should give that swing a type or an acronym, bottle? What do you think? Give a little credit to the guys that discovered it? BTK TC...blow the knees tennis_chiro style. Or GBF LC...golf ball forehand licensedcoach style. Or, RPG DB...racquet perpendicular to ground don_budge style. Afterall didn't we mutually rediscover this little known exotic dandy of a forehand? Then again somehow we must add Yandell's initials too...without the forum we never would of caught this little anomaly. The slo-mo really helps.

[bottle]

I like best "blow the knees tennis_chiro style" since tennis_chiro is a chiro and both my partner Hope and I have blown our knees playing tennis.

[bottle]

Del Potro's Backswing

I love the early offset-- right elbow away from the body with the left elbow closer in even though Juan is apparently using a semiwestern grip which closes racket some before a player ever arrives at the court-- but reject these two forehands as good model because of the wasted motion I see despite all of Juan's obvious leverage and power.

First, he lifts racket tip. What does that get him? Loss of time. Probably he or some coach was fooled by video of Roger just the way I was.

Second, the shoulders rotate backward then stop then rotate backward again. Ridiculous!

Third, the arms do too much non-integrated solo work. Their big separation seems conceptual and idealized, compared to Roger, who continues initial turn of his shoulders by pointing at side fence, and then adds much briefer solo arm work before body rotation the other way takes over again.

Somebody can prefer Juan's forehand because of what it can do, but the economy of Roger's is much better, and maybe Karsten Popp's backswing is even more economical than that from an educational standpoint.

Sorry if anyone sees hubris in this "read/look" of mine. I understand that Juan put in his time (ten years plus, 10,000 hours plus) so that grey goopy stuff coated his neuronal pathways until his forehand had to be registered with Interpol-- well, I for one certainly wouldn't want the nightmare of having to play him in singles or even to hit with him for five minutes.

[tennis_chiro]

Two things, briefly ....

One. I never edited that post and I never posted "blow the ball". Must be the Swedish internet.

Two. I, for one, would love to try to hit with Juan Martin, even if it was only for five minutes and they would have to rush me to the ice bath right after the foolish attempt! And, somehow, I think, Bottle, you would too!

don

[bottle]

You're right, I shouldn't say things I don't mean. But fortunately I'm not running for president.

Just to keep things in perspective, however: My former doubles partner Richard Prouty was head of the Connecticut high school tennis coaches association and arranged a session with Ivan Lendl down on the Connecticut gold coast.

All Lendl did was hit backhands, if Dick's story is true, and not one of the Connecticut high school coaches was able to a hit a single ball back!

[julian1]

Swedish Internet

One. I never edited that post and I never posted "blow the ball". Must be the Swedish internet.

Two. I, for one, would love to try to hit with Juan Martin, even if it was only for five minutes and they would have to rush me to the ice bath right after the foolish attempt! And, somehow, I think, Bottle, you would too!

don

Blogs are NOT write protected
It is a piece of cake to change the original blog

[bottle]

So he liked the original discussion-- right?

[julian1]

Jimmy Arias about the forehand of JMPD

To me, clearly, JMDP is hitting more through the ball on the inside/in and getting more below the ball for the inside out. I tried counting frames from where the racket head started to change direction at the bottom of his swing, but I couldn't get any clear difference. However, it does seem to me he is dropping much more below the ball on the inside/out shot. If we knew the actual angle of the shot, we could see how much court he had to work with. Perhaps he had to get the ball down quick over a higher net going inside out.

don

Don,

Jimmy Arias was commenting today the match of JMPD vs Ferrer
(the Tennis Channel).

Jimmy Arias about the forehand of JMPD:
basically Arias says that JMPD keeps his racket perpendicular (to the court)
as an opposite of a tilted one promoted by other tennis players
It is a bit "orthogonal" to your post but I have thought it was worth
mentioning
Regards,
Julian

[woppie]

Ace

On the unit turn, Delpo keeps his body sideways with his arms moving slowly to the point when he needs to prepare for the hitting phase. The racket on the take back is much higher than most ATP and WTA players. Kinda reminds me of the backswing of 1950's but incorporated with a flip at the start of hitting phase and he uses a straght hitting arm position to contact point. The finish according to the videos he ends around the left deltoid. For me I say his forehand is amazingly accurate, consistant and powerfull.

Ace

[johnyandell]

woppie,

good post and I would have to agree...