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  • Backhand Volley

    Tennis_Chiro's insight into the lost art of creating an inside out racket path is a good one. So good, it's better to start a backhand volley thread.

    It's amazing how well a player can brace for a fast incoming ball with this technique. In fact, the faster the ball, the better. Everything is soooo firm on contact: wrist, arm, and the "hand" is like cast iron. You can brace for bullets this way.

    Originally Posted by tennis_chiro
    There are some nice parts to Oscar's little demo of the introduction of the volley and it is definitely much easier to volley by hitting across the ball. However, to volley really well, especially on the backhand volley, an elite player needs to understand how to create an inside-out path of the racket head to the contact point and a corresponding vector of momentum for their stroke. As I propose this as being necessary, I have to add that hardly any singles player can execute such technique today. I don't think a single player among today's top 20 executes this kind of shot even on the rare occasions when they do volley. You might see it with a few of the doubles specialists or someone like the Frenchman, Llodra. I thought I saw a little of it in Brian Baker's net game. But, by and large, the volleying skill demonstrated by players like Edberg and Cash is essentially a lost art. With the cutting, outside/in stroke that everyone uses today, it takes a much longer swing to generate the same power and "stick" on the volley. Players of the past could "stick" a fast ball with a very brief stroke that could still be executed successfully with some consistency against a fast ball; Bruce Lee's "one inch punch" if you will. It wasn't simply a block; there was actually some forward swing, albeit very short. But when over 50% of the power and momentum of the stroke is going away from the target and the shot is merely a glancing blow, you can't generate enough power to "stick" the volley accurately and consistently with enough speed to conclude the point on a tough passing shot. Just watch Cash's videos in his instructional piece on this site



    Although Pat advocates coming across the ball on his backhand volley, observe how much more he takes the rackethead along the intended path of the ball than the stroke Oscar demonstrates in his video. You can also see a little of this on the clip that Stotty posted of Newcombe and Laver.



    I feel like I am screaming in outer space, but I really believe the old technique allows for a piercing, surgically accurate volley that could be executed on even today's blazingly fast groundstrokes; in fact, I think it's the only way you can volley those balls successfully and the players don't know how to do it anymore...so the front court game has died. If you want to see this technique in action, you have to watch the best doubles players in the world (mostly the ones over 30), making sharp first volleys off returns on balls they are catching below their knees.

    don
    Last edited by stotty; 10-04-2012, 01:04 PM.
    Stotty

  • #2
    Henman

    The last great volleyer: Tim Henman.

    Henman was a very talented volleyer and right up there with the best. His high backhand volley was certainly one of the best I've seen. Sadly, there are none of his high backhand volleys in the archive. But there are plenty of other good ones to admire.

    Stotty

    Comment


    • #3
      Roche

      Tony Roche had a great backhand volley. Watch the first four volleys of this clip...actually watch the whole clip to see loads of great backhand volleys. I can't figure out who has the best backhand volley, Roche or Rosewall? You tell me. Stunning, both of 'em.

      Stotty

      Comment


      • #4
        Once in a lifetime...Backhand volley

        Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
        As for the backhand volley, I am still waiting for some response, except for Stotty.

        don
        I know this seems a bit silly but I want to share a "backhand volley" that I hit in a practice doubles match a couple of years ago with my best boy players. We had a two hour doubles match every Saturday at our little club here in Sweden...Gustaf, Olaf, Philip and I.

        Being left handed and poaching when my partner served to the deuce court...I moved to a position of over a meter past the center of the court to cut off the return and on a ball between shoulder and waist height I hit down and around the ball so perfectly that the ball went between 2 and 3 meters to my left, so close to the net that it bounced on the other side of the court and then came back and slid over to my side of the court probably at a point left of where I stood originally when my partner served.

        I have hit many balls that bounce on my opponents side and come back to my side as a result of underspin but I had never hit one that came back over with sidespin. I have never seen this shot before and probably never will again. The boys still bring it up...or maybe it is me that brings it up. It isn't so often that you can amaze yourself.

        I thought of this when tennis_chiro wrote about crunching the ball down the middle when poaching from the ad court...advocating the inside/out path for such a poach which is of course correct for such a shot. My favorite poach from the deuce side being left handed (the mirror image of tennis_chiro's scenario) is the severe angle with side spin back into the receiver's court, whereas my favorite poach on the other side is to sting it at the receivers partners feet with the kind of inside/out motion that tennis_chiro advocates. I like this option of outside/in on high backhands that may qualify as backhand overheads. Instead of the attempted backhand smash, which is an iffy proposition, I elect for the control element and the surprise element. I like to hit this shot even if I am forced to go backwards and not in position to smash. It is a bit of a gamble but not the lowest of percentage shots for me and when pulled off successfully it usually wins. Of course this is all very personal and depends upon an individuals predispositions. It is best to be able to do both and more importantly to be able to teach both.

        It seems that the backhand is easier to accomplish outside/in motion for severe spin more so than the forehand volley, which is why I liked the Oscar Wegner video...for that small detail. That particular forehand hand motion (accomplished with less downward motion than Oscar is demonstrating) makes it more possible to sting the forehand volley when it is executed correctly with a proper shoulder turn and a proper stance. Optimally one should have the ability to do both but if your options are limited for whatever reason my default options are...sting the forehand and win with touch on the backhand. That being said it is nice to be able to feather the forehand and drive the backhand a bit...depending upon the situation that you are faced with.

        I feel that I didn't make myself clear in my original post and I hope that with the follow up explanations it is becoming clearer and clearer. This is a tough concept to grasp...especially when teaching the related hand motion of the forehand volley whereas the backhand volley is one of the simplest shots in the bag once you get a feeling for the technique. Everything accomplished on the forehand side is done with the arm coming across the body which makes it inherently more complicated whereas the backhand is accomplished with the arm and shoulder in front of the body which makes it simpler...easier to control and easier to generate power off of.
        Last edited by don_budge; 10-05-2012, 03:24 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake...
        don_budge
        Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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        • #5
          Volleys yes! But Is there something wrong with me?

          Volleys volleys volleys. This is going to be a great thread!

          I remember reading the Pat Cash article on tennisplayer.net. I actually got plenty of tips from that, more than I ever expected. The days of Edberg and Cash are gone. Tears are forming in my eyes. The piercing and penetrating volleys are poetry compared to the crushing thumps of groundstrokes which sounds like a construction site.

          At 30 years old, is there something wrong with me that I prefer to watch video of Edberg, Roche, Cash and even Krajicek and not today's stars? Except for Berdych, which I can't really explain.

          Just asking. Rhetorical question perhaps.

          Kyle LaCroix USPTA
          Boca Raton

          Comment


          • #6
            Drive volley...

            You absolutely right, Klacr! Edberg and Roche are a treat to watch on the backhand volley, as were Hoad and Rosewall. Budge Patty, apparently, had an outstanding forehand volley, though I have never saw him play myself.

            A lot of left handers seem to have very good backhand volleys for some reason....yet many tend to be inexplicably poor on the forehand volley. I was watching the 1960 Wimbledon final between Laver and Fraser last night (which is available online in Italian), Fraser had a lousy forehand volley. Laver was peppering it for all he was worth.

            But there is one area where modern tennis has gained an advantage in the forecourt above the golden era: the drive volley. Even the finest volleyers of the past would be hard pushed to put some of the more awkward high balls away for winners. This is where the drive volley is fit for purpose and wins out. In today's tennis those awkward, high balls get walloped for winners....no messing....bang. It's a small advantage the present has over the past but it's not an insignificant one. I find the shot ugly and hard to defend, but there is no denying the drive volley comes in very useful at times.
            Stotty

            Comment


            • #7
              Not necessarily...licensedcoach.

              Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
              I believe the inside/out path is more commonly used in doubles rather than singles. I use it frequently in doubles. You're only covering a narrow corridor of court when volleying in doubles so far more likely get volleys where you can play the inside/out.
              Not so sure about the above quote...but I think I know why you wrote it.





              Here are three decidedly better angles from which to observe your poster boy for modern volleying. Rafter's volleys are pretty good but you have to put an asterisk by them as far as I am concerned. Look at that monster of a racquet. Easy buddy...just kidding.

              But look at these three views as they pertain to the hand motion in the Oscar Wegner video and tell me what you see.
              don_budge
              Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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              • #8
                Born to Volley...Bruce Springsteen

                Tramps like us...baby, we were born to volley.


                Originally posted by klacr View Post
                Volleys volleys volleys. This is going to be a great thread!

                At 30 years old, is there something wrong with me that I prefer to watch video of Edberg, Roche, Cash and even Krajicek and not today's stars? Except for Berdych, which I can't really explain.

                Just asking. Rhetorical question perhaps.

                Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                Boca Raton
                From my point of view Kyle there is absolutely nothing wrong with you which in todays world might be what is wrong with you. So there is your rhetorical answer for you. You just may have been born thirty years too late.
                don_budge
                Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                  Tramps like us...baby, we were born to volley.




                  From my point of view Kyle there is absolutely nothing wrong with you which in todays world might be what is wrong with you. So there is your rhetorical answer for you. You just may have been born thirty years too late.
                  LOL. I've been told that many times before by many people besides yourself don_budge. Somehow I appeared into this world in 1982 when it should have been much much earlier.

                  But as long as I'm ok by you, I'm content with that.

                  Back to volleys, as much as I enjoyed watching Rafter play, I'd consider him more of a great athlete who wanted to and liked to volley, as opposed to someone like Edberg who was a natural volleyer who happened to be a great athlete.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THUvy...eature=related

                  Both incredible players, But Rafter freaked me out when he would do his lunging topspin reflex volleys he would occasionally pull off. Impressive yes, but not for everyone.

                  Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                  Boca Raton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ditto

                    Originally posted by klacr View Post
                    LOL. I've been told that many times before by many people besides yourself don_budge. Somehow I appeared into this world in 1982 when it should have been much much earlier.

                    But as long as I'm ok by you, I'm content with that.

                    Back to volleys, as much as I enjoyed watching Rafter play, I'd consider him more of a great athlete who wanted to and liked to volley, as opposed to someone like Edberg who was a natural volleyer who happened to be a great athlete.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THUvy...eature=related

                    Both incredible players, But Rafter freaked me out when he would do his lunging topspin reflex volleys he would occasionally pull off. Impressive yes, but not for everyone.

                    Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                    Boca Raton
                    I'd have to pretty much agree with Kyle. As great a serve and volleyer as Rafter was, he was not a pure volleyer like Edberg. Among the players I knew the last 25 years, Christo van Rensburg was another player who could make low, reflex, pressure volleys from below the net look like he was doing an instructional video as far as getting down in perfect form, even on a reflex volley. Scary quick.

                    I went to try and make a video clip to further explain what I mean about inside out volleys, especially low backhands, today, but I ran into problem with the bluetooth controls on my machine. I'll have to do it later in the week. But I'll try to get something up before the end of next weekend to elucidate my points a little. In the meantime, I found a couple of old clips I made of a forehand volley a couple of years ago as well as a 27 year-old clip that shows a low backhand volley. It would be very hard to push that volley deep in the court and close as I do in this clip with a stroke that starts with the racket head significantly above the level of the contact point. I'll try to make that point clear with a little demonstration of a volley on a fast low ball from my machines. Sorry, you'll have to wait until next weekend. In the meantime, here are the links to those two clips.





                    Note: I don't really love the forehand volley demonstrated here because the grip is a little too Eastern forehand and there isn't quite enough underspin on the volley, but it gives some idea of hitting on the line of the shot. And on the point, the last overhead is weak because I was a little slow getting turned and I let my hands go down to hit the overhead instead of immediately getting them up and getting my hips and shoulders sideways to the net; I push that hard with my students. However, I did get away with it.

                    don

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
                      I'd have to pretty much agree with Kyle. As great a serve and volleyer as Rafter was, he was not a pure volleyer like Edberg. Among the players I knew the last 25 years, Christo van Rensburg was another player who could make low, reflex, pressure volleys from below the net look like he was doing an instructional video as far as getting down in perfect form, even on a reflex volley. Scary quick.

                      don
                      Christo Van Rensburg, That's a name you don't here that often in this day and age.

                      It's one thing to hit that shot in practice or during a lesson, but to be able to hit that shot technically correct in a quick, high pressure situation is just beautiful. Rafter would improvise and pull off something crazy amazing but I'm a purist at heart. Give me Edberg.

                      Don, I'd love to see a video clip of the inside out volleys you speak about. I'm confident I get your idea but I'm a pretty visual person. Video would be awesome to see.


                      Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                      Boca Raton

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Kyle, here are some clips

                        Originally posted by klacr View Post
                        Christo Van Rensburg, That's a name you don't here that often in this day and age.

                        It's one thing to hit that shot in practice or during a lesson, but to be able to hit that shot technically correct in a quick, high pressure situation is just beautiful. Rafter would improvise and pull off something crazy amazing but I'm a purist at heart. Give me Edberg.

                        Don, I'd love to see a video clip of the inside out volleys you speak about. I'm confident I get your idea but I'm a pretty visual person. Video would be awesome to see.


                        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                        Boca Raton
                        It took a lot more than I expected to get this up and I'm not entirely happy with what I ended up with but here's the answer to your request for some film, Kyle:

                        I've tried to explain a little of the inside/out principle I am advocating for the volley in the following clips. Unfortunately, I am not the best demonstrator. But the point I am trying to make in this first clip is that the racket head should not drop much below the contact point on the follow through and the stroke should end pretty close to the contact point with the shaft still positioned at least somewhat parallel to the net. In these examples, I have exaggerated the mistake and you can see the racket head on the left side of my body here in the incorrect strokes. This is an exaggeration, but not by any great margin.

                        youtube link for FhVlyIntro:




                        Actually, I have other problems with my volley in that clip. At least in this shot, I was able to get my left foot down before I met the ball. It's not something you can often achieve when you are volleying, but given the choice, I want to see that foot on the ground; certainly, you should do it when you are demonstrating in an instructional clip for individuals trying to learn to volley. I seem to be late and a little too upright in all these clips, but at least in this clip, I got my foot on the ground. The grip is a little strong, but I also did a better job here of just going through the shot without scooping or "cupping" under the ball. It's a good crisp hit where the ball "retraces its path" back deep into the court. (I cheated and repeated it a couple of times. In the actual Quicktime file, I just let it play over and over again!) I could do a little better getting my left side around, but notice the crossover step with the left foot does not actually cross over; it just gets me in a good, comfortable position to meet the ball. Also, I am also almost literally at eye-level with the contact as I meet the ball. Easy enough on this high ball, but you want to try to maintain that relationship even on much lower balls. And have your eyes at that level while the ball is coming in; not just when it gets there.

                        youtube: DonB_FhVly_Rear_6_30_07_repeat.mov




                        Now we go on to the real point I was trying to make about the backhand volley. My little demo here is inadequate on a couple of points. First of all, I should have hit the downward striking backhand volleys to the same target as I did with my preferred stroke, but the fact is, it is much more difficult to hit that volley down the line; with my inside/out and more level stroke, it is a lot easier to pick the direction of your shot. The shorter backswing contributes to this flexibility. Also the fact that you get a larger percentage of your momentum and power going in the direction of your intended shot enables you to strike a sharper volley with a lot less effort and in a shorter period of time. But I should have hit a few of my inside/out volleys crosscourt so you could see the difference. I guess I'll have to redo that clip. (Note: I was having a lot of trouble with my remote control and my footwork was really a little late, but I felt I could still use this clip to demonstrate my point. I had a lot of trouble with the remote all through these backhand volley clips.)

                        youtube for BasicBhVly2Hyb:




                        Now we get to the real crux of the problem, the low backhand volley. You need good technique to play this ball effectively. Very few players today really have that. Certainly a 64-year-old teaching pro is not quick enough to execute a textbook demonstration of this shot, but with my "Twins", at least I can give you an idea of what I am getting at. I can't get all the way down the way an Edberg or Cash used to, but I want you to observe in these slow motion shots the way my racket head immediately gets down behind the ball as opposed to taking a reflexive backswing up above the ball. It's the ability to take the racket head right to and behind the ball that enables a truly gifted volleyer to deal with high speed groundstrokes and passing shots. If you don't track the ball really well with the racket head and go right to it without taking the racket away from the contact, you can't expect to have a chance dealing with the speeds of today's players. You can't develop that skill without a lot of time at the net, not only in practice, but also in match play. Today's players never get that time even if they do have the right "dry" technique. Thus, we have a dying art. In fact, even among the doubles players, the younger players rely more on the big groundstokes while the veterans survive and dominate the top of the world rankings with their rapidly disappearing volleying skills. In a game that requires so much speed and quickness, how is it that so many of the top 10 doubles players in the world are over 35? Only one in the top 10 and 3 in the top 20 are under 30. The ages of the top 7 are 34, 34, 35, 40, 39, 33 and 35. I think volleying skills that younger players are no longer learning has a lot to do with that.

                        Here are the links to the low backhand clips:


                        Regular speed: youtube for LowBhVly.mov:




                        Slow motion rear view: (The last 2 of the rear views demonstrate my attempt to execute today's common volley technique): youtube for LowBhVly1:




                        Slow motion corner view: youtube for LowBhVly2:




                        Slow motion front view: youtube for Low BhVly3:




                        I never really thumped any of these the way you should from that far behind the net and the way you can with this kind of technique. Getting too old. Maybe you can put up a couple of clips of some good ones, Stotty!?

                        I still need to do a clearer explanation of my inside/out technique as it applies to a beginner/intermediate player learning to volley or even a better player just learning this technique, but this will have to do for now.

                        I'm curious to hear your reactions.

                        don

                        PS If some of you are interested (I know don_budge is), you can see my scenario for how Roger holds onto number one in the year-end rankings. Strictly a fantasy, but we can have hope!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For love of the game...

                          Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
                          PS If some of you are interested (I know don_budge is), you can see my scenario for how Roger holds onto number one in the year-end rankings. Strictly a fantasy, but we can have hope!

                          http://www.10sballs.com/2012/10/14/h...ber-1-ranking/

                          That is some piece of work tennis_chiro! I am referring to the entire scope of your magnificent post! Thank you for that effort...what an interesting read and video support.

                          With regard to Federer's world number one ranking...I must confess that it doesn't matter to me. To be honest it is not so much that I am a fan of Federer...it is TENNIS that I passionately love and Roger Federer represents something to me. He represents what I learned to be tennis but I am not blinded by his fame and celebrity. He is only a man that happens to play tennis very well. But again...great article, Don. It is unbelievable in its detail of all of the permutations and combinations. It's like a linear algebra class.

                          When he retires there is going to be a void in tennis. A void in the game that I passionately love and have loved for many years even though we were separated for such a long period of time. For me it has been a beautiful thing to reunite after so many years apart. I missed it even though I would never of admitted it to myself. It sounds like a love affair with a woman doesn't it? Well in some ways it is. Such is the metaphysical and mysterious nature of the game...and of life.

                          Tennis is my "girl" in so many ways...just like it is your girl too. I always loved her...even if she did let me down when I needed her most. Of course I let her down too. Such is the nature of love...of tennis. But I let her go and miraculously she came back to me...just like in the song. Like a fairy tale. Patience, patience, patience...let the game come to you. You can't chase it because of its elusive nature. The game is bigger that all of our synergistic efforts combined...and by all of us I mean all of us. Could this be why coaches always act so jealous of one another? Some sort of possessiveness.

                          As for the volley treatise...I have my work cut out for me. It looks promising. It is solid work built on years of experience, wisdom and for the love of the game. Nice job COACH! Thanks for sharing.
                          Last edited by don_budge; 10-16-2012, 01:24 AM.
                          don_budge
                          Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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                          • #14
                            tennis_chiro,

                            Thanks for the excellent visual demo. The ideas you discuss and show I agree with and already teach many of them. I love the fact you demonstrate the right and wrong way as well.


                            The eye level to the ball tip is one of my favorites and my students throughout the years have benefitted from that.

                            The backhand volley is tricky for many, especially if it's low. But even a basic backhand volley, nearly every recreational player tries to chop down, almost forcing backspin or slice on it. When in reality, the ball will already have enough to make it sufficient. A proper shoulder turn is also another issue with many students. Most of whom face the ball directly and unintentionally pull the ball too wide.

                            I could teach volleys all day. It certainly would make my job a lot easier and a lot more fun.


                            Kyle LaCroix USPTA
                            Boca Raton

                            Comment

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