The Oscar Wegner discussion at TennisWarehouse...

[don_budge]

I am dying of curiosity. I have seen a couple of posts at the site but I am not overly impressed. To me it reminds me of an overly populated city. I prefer the community feel of TennisPlayer.net. It helps me to feel more important I suppose.

But when I hear snippets of some colossal titanic struggle over there it worries me that we might become infected. It has now infected and terminated an otherwise very interesting and open discussion about the forehand volley. Perhaps if we knew something of the history of the controversy it might make it more palatable. On the other...who doesn't love a good scandal these days?

Obviously tennis coaches, authors and the like take an enormous amount of pride in what they do. Most coaches are explayers and have a sort of terminal velocity aspect to their drive and ambition. Especially since the advent of modern tennis and now the internet, it sort of reopened the landscape for another big pissing contest. Couple that with the need to make ourselves different and superior in order to sell our particular brand you have a recipe for ego madness. Is it possible that somewhere on the planet at this very moment there are guys fighting that it was them who invented the wheel?

How can one man create so much controversy...so much dialogue? Enlighten me because all that I see in his video instruction is a small, latino accent, somewhat charming little guy espousing on some rather simple methods in getting the beginner to play tennis. That seems to be a good thing. I have incorporated some of his ideas into my teaching but that doesn't mean I will follow him like a lemming over the cliff. But in case you haven't noticed I am not necessarily following anyone. At the same time I was incorporating I was rejecting some of his method. Nothing new there...peck and borrow.

Is he that dangerous as all that? Can we once and for all get to the bottom of this struggle over there and move forward into the funny and somewhat bizarre world of teaching tennis? WTF is that all about (in my most reverberating Johnny McAttack voice)?

[johnyandell]

Hey there is no reason to stop talking about the forehand volley.

There is also no reason to fear that the TW style discussion is going to come over here. One of the disciples used to subscribe but basically commited suicide in a series of ridiculous attacks on Robert Lansdorp and left in a fit of pique.

If you look at Oscar's site you see that he makes a lot of claims about his influence and association with players and coaches. Most of them are false. He has claimed to be the driving force behind Spanish tennis--something several top Spanish coaches have openly refuted. He has also written letters to me personally and many others claiming that I (and others) are a huge negative influence in tennis and setting back junior development in this country. He has publicly claimed that my research validates his work when the truth is the opposite.

He claims that backwards tennis teaching in the states is the reason we don't have players and that he is the leader of a swelling movement that is changing everything--to you guessed it--Oscar. For example he states that virtually all American coaches teach a bizarre forehand where players are trained to run with the racket behind them and finish straight out on the right side, that they don't teach topspin, etc etc.

The other big problem is that his own "play like the pros" mantra is bogus. Many of his most basic ideas--stalking the ball with the racket in front of the body till the ball bounce, eastern forehand grip with the bottom hand and open stance exclusively on the two handed backhand, just don't correspond to the pros or any good players.

He states that the top players purposely hit below center on the racket and promotes this as one of the secrets he sells in his dvds.

No one really cares I don't think about coaches honest disagreements in theory. But he has aggressively pushed bad ideas, claimed that the top players use them because of him, annoited himself, and I quote, "the father of modern tennis," and viciously attacked people who challenge him, either making stuff up or disregarding and refusing to acknowledge clear evidence. Then he backs that up with a pack of attack dog disciples.

Really there are very few people in tennis coaching that I don't know and get along with well--just look at the list of Tplayer writers. But I don't stand still for the kind of crap he has pushed out for years about me and others. So yeah there is something really off about Oscar and if he would just voice his opinions and stop making ridiculous claims and insulting reputable people I and probably no one else would care.

And it is a good fhv discussion.

[sfrazeur]

I really don't know what is with some of those people on there.
"5263" is a zealot and one of Oscar's toadies. He has cleaned up his act and isn't dropping Oscar's name quite so much these days from what I have seen.
The whole Oscar / MTM thing has been an issue their since at lest 2008. That is when I was still a User-Moderator on Talk Tennis. TW during that time did not do much in general regarding repeat offenders unless there we personal attacks.

It was about two years that I ordered Oscar's whole DVD and Book set. I was interested not so much in the information therein but in its presentation. I wanted to know what got people so passionate.

The conclusion that it came almost from cult of personality. Oscar comes off as being very charismatic: lots of energy and enthusiasm for his brand of teaching. There is no doubt in the watcher's mind that he believes in what he says and that he wants you to learn in the most easy way he can show you.

Osacar is not alone in his videos. He always has someone, a toadie, play Devil or in most cases Angel's advocate. The earlier videos have Brad Holbrook in that role. Later ones have John Carpenter, known has "5263" on the TW forums, in the role of the toadie. They are basically there to say how great and revolutionary Oscar and his methods are.

-Shaun

[johnyandell]

Thanks for the honest feedback. It's sad that Oscar has created so much negative energy. Think if all that had gone into positive thought...

Is it John or the crazy former subscriber Chuck Tomlin...think he might be 5263..

[sfrazeur]

Whoops! I think I made a mistake there. "teachestennis" on TW Forum is John Carpenter. It can be hard to tell the Wegnerites apart sometimes.

[sfrazeur]

After a minute of Googling. . . I think you are right John. Chuck Tomlin via face book says he is a pilot and MTM Tennis Instructor as does his TW forum bio. How many MTM/Pilots can there be?

[johnyandell]

Yep it's him. Believe me I know... Sometime I'll tell the bizarre story when he "visited" me in SF.

[don_budge]

Let's get this party started!!!

Yep it's him. Believe me I know... Sometime I'll tell the bizarre story when he "visited" me in SF.

This is some fascinating stuff but we need to expand on it. Let's here some stories and perhaps some copy and paste of some of the more controversial material and statements. We need more specifics as interested readers and students of the game. The "cult of personality" is often an interesting subject as well. What more can you make of this aspect as related to his affiliation with the Scientology world?

It seems there is more to this guy than meets the eye. He comes across as completely harmless in the youtube clips.

[johnyandell]

Well the big fight thread that went on for over a year was deleted. That had a lot of punches back and forth although I will say mine were backed by evidence. It would be impossible to rehash it anyway.

But there is another one now that is headed in the same direction. I told Chuck to shut up last night...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441444

[stotty]

John Yandell

John, you'd be far better off writing over here than fending off detractors over there. If someone is held bent on rubbishing your efforts, they'll do it and there isn't a darn thing you can do about it. Some folk are just like that. Writing content over there can only fan the flames higher. It becomes tit for tat...no one wins...it's a pointless exercise that can only diminish the great work you do. Tit for tat never looks good to the indifferent onlooker and he/she will take neither you or Oscar seriously as a result. I know it's easy for me to say because I'm not the recipient of the abuse...nor would I know if Oscar's outlandish claims are true or false...but I have been the recipient of abuse in the past and have learnt it's wise not to be provoked.

I am being honest and frank...hope you don't mind...comments over at TW aren't worth the time of day to you, they really aren't.

John, what you have is a "body of work" not an alternative teaching method. You have the leading website in the world for what you are doing. It means a great deal and is worth infinitely more than anything anyone else is doing right now. You are not preaching....you're observing, discovering tennis. It's noble stuff.

I never go to TW...it's a sprawling metropolis of, mostly, meaningless tennis talk. I'm not keen. As don_budge says, we're a community over here, a more civilised one. It's a better place over here.

I know little about Oscar. His disciples run coach education courses over here in the UK. They try to convert coaches to the Oscar way of teaching. That seldom happens...not least because it's such an upheaval for most coaches to discard traditional coaching methods in favour of an alternative teaching method. The INNER GAME of TENNIS run coach education courses over here too. Their methods aren't used either....too radical for most coaches to take on board and use in a practical way.

[johnyandell]

Stotty,

You are probably correct! I may or may not take your wise advice...

But thanks for the words about the body of work. That is what I feel as well and it means a lot that passionate people find it has value!

John

[bman]

John, its not even close between you and Oscar (he is not even in your league), but I did notice that Jeff Salzenstein, who you have promoted on this site and is very good in my opinion, teaches "stalking the ball" as well.

[johnyandell]

Bman--very observant! Jeff is really good. We filmed a lot of that serve course for him. Jeff likes the stalking idea on the move forward on the volley which is probably good. (I just can't stand the word...)

But we've talked about the issues regarding Oscar's claims and let's just say he's more informed now. Jeff met with Oscar once when he was playing. later Oscar called him up and asked him if he could list himself as the cause of his run into the top 100...Surprised?

Thanks for the good words about our work. Really really appreciated.

[klacr]

For what it's worth

John,

Been a member of your site for a bunch of years now, initially as a member of USPTA, and now as a legit, satisfied and paying customer.

To be honest, never been on the Tennis Warehouse forums. If I go to tennis warehouse it's because I need to buy something, not because I want to hear about coaching and technique.

I've seen Oscar Wegner videos and ideas. It is what it is. Don't stress yourself out over it. I'll give you some advice I learned a long time ago the hard way Mr. Yandell..."Never get into a pissing match with a skunk"

I'm a visual kind of guy, and this website is by far the website is greatest tool for me and my students on the internet.

I've seen Jeff Salzenstein's website through twitter and he's got some good stuff and I'm happy for him. But to be honest, I don't have a wondering eye to see what else is out there. I know what I have, happy with what I have, and loyal to what I have. No need to change and drift.

I always stick with what works. And if there is a problem, I resolve it. I know the "grass is always greener" phrase is bs. If I don't like the grass on my lawn, I'll fix it. No sense of buying a new house if I only need to better care for my yard.

John, your website is great. I won't tell you how to do your job and debate with you, I simply am here to learn, improve and maybe help people learn along the way. Thanks for all the hard work and your contributions to our great sport of tennis.

Sinead O'connor's "Nothing Compares 2 U" would be an appropriate song to this post.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johnyandell]

Kyle,

What a wonderful post. The skunk analogy I like! Onward into the future.