My thoughts...On the Volley. To tennislearningforlife or to whom it may concern.

[stotty]

Mac

So much talk about McEnroe in this thread...and why not...he was the master when it came to volleying....but he was more than that. I watched many of Mac's matches (mostly at Wimbledon). He ALWAYS played exactly the right shot in any given situation, whether he was at the baseline or the net. His decisions were close to perfect. He's the only player I can think of who has ever done that.

Yes, I dream of volleys in my sleep, too, Klacr.

[blake_b]

Thanks don_budge

Hi don_budge,

Thanks for your great exposition on approach tactics! I study with a meditation master in Cochise Stronghold, and he once studied with a shaman. That is somewhat of a connection.

I am excited to try the drills that you mentioned. Sometimes, I find it hard to find partners that like to do drills. Many people at the 4.0 level just want to play matches, but I will keep looking.

I was at the courts practicing by myself and I stood at the baseline and tossed balls into the court simulating a short ball, and then I worked on some approach shots. I tried the side spin approach, which I had never really tried before, and I can see how that would be very effective. Hitting passing shots on low balls in the doubles alley could not be easy.

I see how variety is very important for approach shots. Even at this level, it is easy to get passed with a waste high ball that sits up. I have also noticed that when pros approach cross court they often get passed.

I was watching a clip of McEnroe playing Borg, and I was amazed at how often he got passed, yet he still won the match. I need to develop more faith in the attacking game, even if I am getting passed pretty regularly.

I have been working to beef up my serve, and I have added a slice serve wide in the deuce court that will help my serve and volley game.

With appreciation,
Blake

[stotty]

I was watching a clip of McEnroe playing Borg, and I was amazed at how often he got passed, yet he still won the match.

Blake

Which match was it?

[blake_b]

Hi Stotty,

It was the 1980 US Open Final. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oxOHvjAjzw

It was only a 10 minute hi-light clip so it could have been skewed, although they also showed plenty of nice volley winners.

Blake

[don_budge]

Cochise...McEnroe and Borg

Hi don_budge, Thanks for your great exposition on approach tactics! I study with a meditation master in Cochise Stronghold, and he once studied with a shaman. That is somewhat of a connection.

I was watching a clip of McEnroe playing Borg, and I was amazed at how often he got passed, yet he still won the match. I need to develop more faith in the attacking game, even if I am getting passed pretty regularly.

With appreciation,
Blake

Cochise Stronghold...Dragoon Mountains right? I covered that real estate in my adventures...it may of been there where I acquired my other name for my other self. Johnny Rattlesnake. I suppose he thought that I have a little McEnroe in me. But anyways...I remember camping out in a ravine there all by my lonesome. The wind was howling around and around all night long. It sounded like a train when it was approaching my end of the canyon. I had made a fire but I dove into my sleeping bag when the noise of the little rustling critters outside of the light zone turned into something considerably larger. Scared my self half to death. Later on I was told it was a show put on for my behalf. You never know what to make of these guys...are they just pulling your chain or are they as serious as a heart attack?

Great that you appreciate the dance being performed by those two in the youtube piece. Notice that both are using "tiny" little wooden racquets. It baffles me that the tennis world is so in awe of the shot making of today when they are using space gadgets for racquets. The racquets are 50% bigger than the traditional woodies the boys are using. Can you imagine what that little discrepancy makes in the hands of trained professionals?

By the way...you will never see a better contrast of actors on the tennis court. You will never in your life see a better rivalry. These two transcended everything in every sport if you ask me. Marvelous action and never a dull moment. The enigmatic Iceberg Swede and the insane Volcanic American. Never again.

Thanks for the questions and thanks for going out to practice on the material. When you find someone to do the drills with you will enter a new dimension in your tennis. Just about anyone will do. Anyone that can keep the ball in play going down the middle. I used to practice against my students...up and back. Until I melted down...into a puddle of blood, sweat and tears.

Because of your interest and the nice things that Kyle and Stotty have said I am going to repost some other material on the volleys. I am also writing for those that are skeptical that these tactics can still be in play because I think that a big contribution of the extinction of these tactics is that coaches got lazy. Granted I understand the engineering angle...after all, I was there when it happened so I understand it better than most. It is easier to just teach a forehand and a backhand with a mediocre serve than to dig deep and teach the whole enchilada.

It is interesting in hindsight to see what I had written back at the turn of the year and how consistent I am in what I wrote. Some might say repetitive...but isn't that what tennis is all about? Repetitive motions. Under different circumstances. A variety of circumstances. My students say I repeat myself all the time. Darned right, I do.

You are darned right about the number of times old Johnny Boy gets passed by the Ice Viking. But he just kept on coming. Undaunted and unfazed...he just kept coming. Live by the sword, die by the sword. The true volleyer mentality...perhaps the true American mentality. Don't take no for an answer!

[don_budge]

Anticipating Roger's Thunder...then faced with a Federfore Featherer.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2005&highlight=brilliant+disguise

What's the name of that Springsteen tune...Brilliant Disguise?

Brilliant Disguise....Bruce Springsteen

I hold you in my arms
As the band plays
What are those words whispered baby
Just as you turn away
I saw you last night
Out on the edge of town
I wanna read your mind
To know just what I've got in
This new thing I've found
So tell me what I see
When I look in your eyes
Is that you baby
Or just a brilliant disguise

Now you play the loving woman
I'll play the faithful man
But just don't look too close
Into the palm of my hand
We stood at the altar
The gypsy swore our future was right
But come the wee wee hours
Well maybe baby the gypsy lied
So when you look at me
You better look hard and look twice
Is that me baby
Or just a brilliant disguise

Tonight our bed is cold
I'm lost in the darkness of our love
God have mercy on the man
Who doubts what he's sure of

Well talk about lovely tennis shots. This little feathery is a stroke of genius and it's brilliance is in it's disguise. The initial manipulation of the racquet head with the shoulder turn allows The Swiss Maestro to perform two radically different motions, he can pound it into the corners or he can soothe it and smooth it trickling over the net...how beautiful is that? It hurts when you realize what is coming...you've been fooled!

With his racquet head in proper position...where the racquet head is higher than his hand and just as importantly the head of the racquet is just barely behind his hand so that he has maintained the subtle flex in his wrist, he is in position to make this soft caress on the ball with his strings moving subtly down and across the back of the ball. It's basically a forehand volley stroke. Notice he is not accomplishing this motion with just his hand...or just his arm...or just anything for that matter. His entire being is into this shot...every bit as much as it is behind his Federfore forehand blast or his biggest serves. The whole being of Roger Federer is into his softest shot...with just the right proportion of forward movement necessary to accomplish such a soft placement. Voila...the Federfore Featherer.

The subtle forward movement as he is making contact with the ball is the key. Many try to slide the racquet under the ball with the wrist or try to absorb the ball into the racquet with an almost backwards movement which are both very risky tries on this type of shot...in fact they don't make any sense statistically speaking. Look at his eyes and the position of his head. No head fakes. No no-lookies. The racquet head must be accelerating through the ball on contact or else you can kiss all semblance of control goodbye. Knowing Roger Federer...knowing what a control freak he is, this is going to be the last thing he is going to surrender on such a tender shot...control.

The most difficult aspect of making short putts in golf is the realization that you must accelerate the putter face through the ball. You have got to swing the putter. For you golfer/tennis players out there try visualizing swinging through to the point of the ball that is closest to the hole or rather closest to the net. Trying to push the ball into the hole or trying to wish it into the hole creates a large degree of uncertainty or doubt even on short putts or shots. That is the last thing you want to be feeling on such a delicate shot or stroke...it's the kiss of death. The same thing applies here...you have to swing the racquet. Even the shortest of shots share some of the most fundamental characteristics as the bigger shots...turn the body away from the ball and move the body through the ball. Weight forward on the front foot and accelerate the racquet head through the ball...it's virtually the same recipe for making short putts.

This tennis player is an artist and you could say that he is "poetry in motion".
Would it be possible to see this shot from the other side of his body so that we can fully appreciate the disguise of his backswing? It's one thing to hit brilliantly disguised backhand drop shots and quite another to deliver the feathery touch off the forehand side...as in the Federfore Featherer.

God have mercy on the man...who doubts what he's sure of.

[don_budge]

The strong side of continental for forehand volleys...and drop shots.

To address the specific question: To me it looks like he is somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip when hitting the shot. That said: I think Fed has so much feel that he could pull off that shot wth a western forehand grip.

I think that you are exactly right forehand...."somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip" would be the forehand volley grip. This is an interesting note when it comes to teaching volley grips...particularly on the forehand side. Traditionally it seems that the term continental was most frequently used in association with volley technique, but I think that your description is more apropos these days for forehand volleys.

With this in mind...if the grip is a bit stronger on the forehand, a good backhand volley stroke can still be accomplished in the event that the player does not have sufficient time to change to a stronger backhand grip because the weaker grip will encourage more under spin, which is acceptable in my book. Then the emphasis on the backhand volley played with a weaker grip becomes more one of placement and touch with a combination of penetration due to the additional spin.

If you notice the position of the racquet that Roger is in when he begins his descending stroke on the ball and if you can imagine him fitting his hand to the racquet relative to his body position your description is a precise fit. That being said...I don't think Roger would ever attempt such a shot with a western grip because his statistical capability would go noticeably south and this guy is all about playing the odds in his favor...but I get your point.

[don_budge]

Federer drop shots...volleys, half-volleys and grips.

Is this really a more modern technique, i.e., to have the grip between a true continental and, say, an eastern forehand grip? I've found in my own playing that making the extra effort to stay in a true continental (my grip likes to slip toward, but not all the way to, an eastern fh grip) helps the control and consistency on my volleys quite a bit. In fact I've made this change within the last two months and seen a notable difference in the results between the two grips.

But I think traditionally volley’s have been encouraged to be stroked with continental grips and if the trend is towards a stronger forehand grip these days there are not enough volleyers around to measure and get a clear picture of such a trend...or the reason’s why. Personally, I can see some very good reasons for sliding around a bit toward the eastern side of continental on the forehand volley grip and much of it has to do with the height of the shot to be played and the amount of spin upon said shot. Shots that are played at the height of the net and higher might be played with a slightly stronger grip than continental because a weaker grip is going to encourage more underspin which is not what I want on my forehand volley, especially nowadays when passing shots resemble the dipping bullets...I want a ball with a bit more “pop” and a bit more penetration. I like a slightly flatter ball, although still struck with underspin...and above all, I don’t want my first volley to sit up and give my opponent another ungodly swing with the associated amount of overspin leaving me trying to volley another dipping bullet. The slightly stronger grip has the effect of slightly closing down the face of the racquet as opposed to the continental grip which will effectively open the face and encourage more spin. It seems to me that with the way the body is set up relative to the hand on the racquet to hit shots of this height and higher it makes sense to take advantage of the height to hit more “crisply” and without pronounced spin.

On the other hand if one is trying to win with delicate placement and touch, you might find your hand sneaking back to the continental side of the grip. If one is volleying balls that are below the net and diving at your feet a continental grip might be more appropriate as well. This goes for half volleys that are to be struck with underspin...whereas half volleys with over spin might be more comfortably accomplished with a grip leaning towards eastern. See my point?

I don’t believe that it is written anywhere in stone that one must use any one grip for volleys and I don’t believe that it is written anywhere in stone regarding balls that are to be hit off the bounce. The grip many times is dictated by what type of shot is to be played, what kind of spin and at what height the ball is to be played. The modern game makes it a bit simpler the way it is being played today, except maybe in Federer’s case, as the strong grip forehand and the two hand backhand are the predominate strokes of choice. If you are playing all-court tennis, or even doubles for that matter, you might find that your grip is sliding back and forth a bit...and for good reason. As in variety of shot selection.

But you see...this is mostly theory and my personal experience. If you are experiencing success with the strictly continental grip, my position would certainly be to stick with it. You cannot argue with success.

Mr. Budge, a few questions:

First, while this and a forehand volley stroke share many similarities, isn't the arm action here much more downward than forward -- at least compared to a FH volley?

Second, I think your point about racquet/club acceleration is spot-on, and worth being reminded of (especially as in tight moments that's exactly what ails me!). That said, I'm curious as to how much RF's racquet is accelerating here. It's certainly hard to tell from the high-speed footage, and moreover his limited follow through seems suggestive of somewhat diminished racquet head speed.

If Federer was at the net and attempting to hit a crisp volley into one of the corners for instance you would be absolutely correct in your observation about the arm movement. Here he is attempting a drop shot from a rather long distance from the net, so accordingly he is relying on the arc of the ball and some rather fine placement to win for him and he is not relying upon crisp volley action on his ball to conclude the point. The steepness of his stroke reflects a visible attempt to apply more underspin and the longer follow through reflects the greater distance to the net. This action looks very close to what his technique would look like on a drop volley at the net...except it is perhaps longer as you have noted. I think too, that Federer tends to have a steeper volley stroke than may be advisable.

You make a couple of really astute observations here, dimitrios (thanks so much for the conversation)...as did tennis_chiro and forehand, I wondered all day about them. The question about how much his racquet is accelerating through the ball...at what speed, that is, is an interesting one. It, the acceleration, doesn’t have to be much and the action of his shoulders turning and the planting of his front foot don’t have to be so exaggerated either...as long as they take place at the precise moment that they should take place. Timing is everything...the right place at the right time. The racquet head, the turning shoulders and the weight placement leaning forward towards the front foot are all contributing to the momentum and the energy that is being displaced into the shot. You have to admit...it is all very subtle in nature.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

I have always admired Federer’s ability to drop shot off the forehand with the disguise he has built into his forehand backswing. I still believe the strength of this particular shot is his disguise. Once he gets the racquet to his side with the racquet head about head high he is in perfect position to pull off this shot...if he chooses to. I have worked on this shot in my own game as I have more or less mimicked his backswing, trying to incorporate the ability to hit this drop shot I find myself using a volley-like stroke for my best chance for success. It might even be more correct to describe this as a half volley variation...as it appears that this ball is being played on the rise.

Btw...do you know what the German word for feather is. It’s “feder”. Thus the Federfore Featherer.

[don_budge]

From "Salzy Federer"...Volley technique

I wrote this some months ago in a thread entitled "Salzy Federer"...the thread had turned to a discussion about volleying. This description is further justification to comparing Federer's drop shot to a "volley like stroke" or even a "half-volley like stroke".

Volley...technique

The volley is optimally three motions simultaneously performed together to create a synergetic effect. Remember when hitting the ball in the air...less is better. Score with a combination of placement and solid contact rather than outright speed.

1. The weight is subtly shifted on to the front foot, the mark of a great volleyer...chest and shoulders over the front knee from bending at the waist.

2. Subtle rotation of shoulders rotating into the shot...imagine blocking or meeting the ball with the inside shoulder on the forehand side, or driving the front shoulder down into the ball on the backhand side.

3. Subtle arm and hand motion slightly downward to impart just enough backspin through the racquet head for control.

Really good volleyers are able to produce effective shots with motions 2 and 3 and at the same time..."stabilizing the body" as Don says, which means placing the body and racquet head in a position to form a nice wall against the approaching ball even if the front foot cannot be placed down in its optimal position. Wrong footing volleys is not necessarily wrong. Generally speaking...the more difficult the volley, the less motion. KISS.

If you wish to study volley technique you have to go back a bit farther than Rafter. He was a nice player...no knocks against him. But consider that the most monstrous thing about his volleys is the monster of a racquet he used. The Princess!



I would like to add as a footnote here about volley, drop shot and half-volley technique, that the weight is sinking into the front foot at the same time that the racquet head is sinking into the ball. I just love it when that happens.

One other note regarding the Maestro's technique on this particular drop shot that is a thing of poetic beauty, a major contributing factor to his playing tennis as an art form is the way he keeps the racquet face on the path of the ball after he has struck the shot. As an artist keep the paint brush on the line of flight.

Too many times the face of the racquet comes sliding through and off the path as the ball is struck coming over the top so to speak... even here it appears that Roger is striking this little beauty slightly from the inside track. I think that this aspect of keeping the racquet head on the path of the ball is one of the most important fundamental rules in hitting tennis balls, particularly true for forehand volleys.

I have often pondered Federer's forehand drop shot and it doesn't surprise me that there is so much to write about, at least for me, even though the shot is so small compared to the thunder he is capable of producing. The ability to slow down the action on the video is one of the real values of this site. It enables us to "see" what is happening moment to moment in such a delicate picture.

[don_budge]

Deception and disguise...

I have been working to beef up my serve, and I have added a slice serve wide in the deuce court that will help my serve and volley game.

Off of that same motion...learn to swing it into the body of your opponent and also learn to bang it up the middle. Get those feet churning to the net...ala McEnroe. Variety off of the same motion is true deception. Freeze them in their footsteps with the split second of doubt.

[blake_b]

Deception and Disguise

Hi don_budge,

Yes, Cochise Stronghold is in the Dragoon mountains and it it pretty windy at times. It is very pretty and a great place to view the stars at night, since there is little light pollution.

I have been working on hitting all three spins to either half of the service box. I am finding deception and disguise to be quite helpful. It seems more effective than pure power.

Thanks,
Blake

[blake_b]

I also said this:

1. Both players start at the baseline and one of the players advances hitting balls with a rallying partner who keeps the ball going. The advancing player gets all the way to the net and then retreats all the way BEHIND the baseline...where he immediately advances to the net again. Up and back, over and over. He should complete the whole trip to the net and to the baseline hitting a maximum of six shots. Here you can throw up a lob when the approaching player reaches the net for some overhead practice.

Hi don_budge,

I finally got an opportunity to try this drill, and I am very impressed. I think this is a great drill that will take my all court game to the next level. I also tried this against a wall which was a great workout.

Thanks for sharing this, and I look forward to trying the other variations.

Blake

[don_budge]

blake_b vs. licensedcoach

Hi don_budge,

I finally got an opportunity to try this drill, and I am very impressed. I think this is a great drill that will take my all court game to the next level. I also tried this against a wall which was a great workout.

Thanks for sharing this, and I look forward to trying the other variations.

Blake

I don't know what makes me happier...you finding some positive growth due to my groundstroke/approach shot/volley and retreat to baseline to begin anew drill or Stotty's quoting of Bill Tilden in the "Traditional Forehand" thread.

I think that your experience takes the cake. I am really glad that you found something of merit in this and I firmly believe that others would too. This business of hitting the ball while moving forwards is a precursor to the attack game. If you have the mentality that once you have hurt your opponent and you get a short ball to prey on...take advantage of the situation. Move in aggressively and vary your tempo. The more that you vary your tactics the less certain your opponent can be of your intentions in any given situation.

Sometimes you can stagger your move in a bit...when you see that your opponent is perhaps indecisive about a strong shot that you have played you may wait just a split second and creep in a bit until you sense he will play defensively then you make a strong move in and play your volley maybe from the service line. Learn to anticipate the weak return and swoop in and take care of business. Short balls are an invitation to go to the net.

Anyways, with constant repetition in these drills you will investigate all of the possibilities and then you will incorporate this forward movement into your match play tactics. These are tactical ploys and the sounder your technique the more versatility you have to explore different tactics. Thanks for the post...and good luck with your practice and match play!

[stotty]

I don't know what makes me happier...you finding some positive growth due to my groundstroke/approach shot/volley and retreat to baseline to begin anew drill or Stotty's quoting of Bill Tilden in the "Traditional Forehand" thread.

The book is superb. I couldn't find a copy here in the UK so had to import one from the US. I found the book fascinating from start to finish. I especially liked the tactics section and Bill's take on what it takes to be great at tennis. I love how he developed himself as a player, how he at times sacrificed results in order to build another dimension to his game. I feel he must have thought about tennis perhaps more then anyone.

The background to Tilden's life is also fascinating. Was he really a ephebophile or a pedophile? Or merely a victim of rumor and trumped up charges?...we'll never truly know. He was certainly homosexual it seems.

I had no idea until recently that Vladimir Nabakov used wordplay on Bill Tilden's name in his book Lolita. He named the tennis coach in the book Ned Litam. Spelt backwards Ned Litam reads Ma Tilden...thought to be either Tilden's nickname...or the name of his mother. In the book Lolita Humbert Humbert hires Ned Litam to coach Lolita because he is a gay and therefore not a threat to his love for Lolita. Fascinating stuff...

[don_budge]

Feedback time...

Thanks for sharing this, and I look forward to trying the other variations.

Blake

Once again thanks for your trying out my suggestion with this drill. I wonder if you would mind expanding on your thoughts a bit about your initial impressions about how this might help you in your all-court game. What revelations have you had?

It's good to hear that you did this against the wall and found it to be a "great workout"...you can literally work at this all by yourself and as hard as you want or dare to. Your partner doesn't have to be a strong player either...they just need to keep the ball going down the middle while you run yourself into a lather. I used to call this drill "aerobic tennis". From my experience hard work has a big influence on the mastery of "it". Repetition...is the key.