Shaping Forehands

[stotty]

Thanks!

Lovely comments from 10s and don_budge. I feel myself blushing at such high praise.

A little about me:

I was born in Brazil and in raised in Portugal. Both my parents are British but I didn't come to live in England until aged twelve. I started playing tennis aged 13 and have played literally everyday since...I usually play on Christmas Day if the weather allows. I became a coach aged 23 and started my career coaching tourists in the Algarve, Portugal. I did this for 3 seasons. I then spent a number of years as a kind of apprentice to John Lloyd's (former British No.1) father. I learnt a lot from him as you can imagine (all three of his sons played in the Wimbledon singles)...and when he retired I succeeded him as the head pro at the club where I continue to work to this day.

I am married to an Italian and have two children, both boys.

[don_budge]

licensedcoach...aka Stotty

you're welcome LC, and not surprised you've already addressed and corrected the problem. Maybe it's from years in the business, but I'm not easily impressed...But ill have to say I am with you. Your work ethic, obvious commitment to your kids, etc is commendable...You are the consumate professional....

Vinay is a lucky kid. Cheers.

I second that. "Shaping Forehands"...another fascinating subject courtesy of good old boy...Stotty. Easily one of the more "provocative" posters on the forum who has the amazing ability in the lost art of conversation of raising interesting questions that are discussion worthy. Keep up the good work!

[10splayer]

Thanks for your input. It's always great when you chip in 10s!

The clips were taken some 3 months ago and things have moved on somewhat since then. Vinay has now learned the semi-open stance and how to rotate the torso. I've also taught him to catch the racket at the end of the follow through which stops his non-hitting arm getting in the way and aids the whole process in general.

Of the four boys Vinay's forehand is now the best. It has simplicity. He just takes the racket straight back Del Potro-style and belts it. He's a fearless little chap, too. He comes from a family of seven children. There isn't too much money spare in the family to have tennis lessons so I try to help out as much as I can by getting the club to sponsor many of his activities.

Though Vinay doesn't have too many lessons, he is a listener so I am optimistic. I may post some more clips at some point.

Thanks so much for your post, 10s. Your opinions are always welcome and very much respected at my end.

you're welcome LC, and not surprised you've already addressed and corrected the problem. Maybe it's from years in the business, but I'm not easily impressed...But ill have to say I am with you. Your work ethic, obvious commitment to your kids, etc is commendable...You are the consumate professional....

Vinay is a lucky kid. Cheers.

[stotty]

Vinay

I'm sure all the boys will be just fine under your guidance. However, vinay has a problem that needs to be addressed (IMO) immediately. And that is the lack of, and late rotation of the torso. The big "tell" here is the momentary crossing of the arms. You've mentioned your preference for teaching netruel or closed stance initially, but in this case I believe he would be better served to play all balls from a semi open stance for awhile. It will teach him better alignment to the ball, and with the front side (right side) out of the way, will free up, and encourage liberal rotation of the torso. Show him how the torso rotates first and emphasize keeping the right arm ahead of the left.

Thanks for your input. It's always great when you chip in 10s!

The clips were taken some 3 months ago and things have moved on somewhat since then. Vinay has now learned the semi-open stance and how to rotate the torso. I've also taught him to catch the racket at the end of the follow through which stops his non-hitting arm getting in the way and aids the whole process in general.

Of the four boys Vinay's forehand is now the best. It has simplicity. He just takes the racket straight back Del Potro-style and belts it. He's a fearless little chap, too. He comes from a family of seven children. There isn't too much money spare in the family to have tennis lessons so I try to help out as much as I can by getting the club to sponsor many of his activities.

Though Vinay doesn't have too many lessons, he is a listener so I am optimistic. I may post some more clips at some point.

Thanks so much for your post, 10s. Your opinions are always welcome and very much respected at my end.

[10splayer]

The forehand is my favourite shot in tennis. For me, it's the backbone of a player's game. The shot fascinates me. I work very hard to develop good forehands in my students if I can. I like forehands to be simple to produce and reliable. A weak forehand equals a player who will always struggle to win tough matches.

Where possible I try install good forehands in kids from the outset:

Here are four of my youngest players in the order they appear on the clip: Louis, aged 7, Owen (8), Vinay (7) Misha (8). All have ability and are as keen as mustard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qvbCngyPhA&feature=youtu.be

I like to get youngsters to achieve key technical things:

*Establish a good grip (I encourage a conservative grip with the very young)
*Develop the unit turn
*The non-hitting arm stretch across the body
*The tip of the racket pointing upwards when commencing the backswing (I am very fond of this type of start to the backswing)
*Develop a good base with the feet.
*Keep the backswing on the hitting side of the body

I am gradually ticking all the boxes with the four boys. The last item on that list is trickiest to maintain. All kids want to whack the ball and the type 1 forehand surfaces very quickly…it's kind of obvious it will happen, isn't it?. As you can see from the clip, Louis and Owen extend their backswings a little too far…but I am working to tame their exuberance. Misha lacks shape yet while Vinay cannot mentally separate when to use an open stance and a neutral stance.

The next clip shows the girl from the infamous "backswings" thread posted around a year ago. She recently turned 10 years old. The original backswings thread had to be deleted from the forum because of abusive remarks from one individual. It was a shame because it was one of the best threads I ever started on Tennisplayer. The contributions from other coaches were immense. Tennisplayer has an array of experienced coaches on the forum who form a powerful coaching team when united together.

The thread (with video clips) centred around a girl with an excessive backswing. I was concerned about her backswing because it ventured way beyond the hitting side of her body. Though many women on the tour have excessive backswings, I was uncomfortable with it in her case. Her forehand was both powerless and erratic.

Many coaches contributed to the thread with recommendations for how to improve her forehand. Brian Gordon chipped in with advice, stating the forehand backswing was part of a body of work he was embarked on. I now guess that must have been his latest work on the ATP forehand.

I am posting two clips:

Clip 1: Shows where the girl's forehand was last year. It shows her excessive backswing, It also reveals a full semi western grip and a dubious start to the backswing; with the head of the racket lagging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwne-vvrErI&feature=youtu.be

Clip 2: Shows the latest in the girl's development on the forehand side… with most of the boxes ticked…still work to do but we're getting there. Don't you just love the way she is itching to move and work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFxeaD_V4vc&feature=youtu.be

I wonder how other coaches develop forehands in their young players? I wonder what boxes you like to tick when developing forehands in young children? Feel free to comment on the kids in the clip but have in mind the children are very young and I can only achieve so much at this stage.

I'm sure all the boys will be just fine under your guidance. However, vinay has a problem that needs to be addressed (IMO) immediately. And that is the lack of, and late rotation of the torso. The big "tell" here is the momentary crossing of the arms. You've mentioned your preference for teaching netruel or closed stance initially, but in this case I believe he would be better served to play all balls from a semi open stance for awhile. It will teach him better alignment to the ball, and with the front side (right side) out of the way, will free up, and encourage liberal rotation of the torso. Show him how the torso rotates first and emphasize keeping the right arm ahead of the left.

[don_budge]

The Player...The Artist...and The Shaman

Great discussion and yeah I love that song. Thanks for the lyrics...

Rog does an amazing array of things hitting 4 forehands in a row now doesn't he????

Yes he does. An absolutely amazing array of things. The slow motion allows us to appreciate the artistry, the feline gracefulness and the control of his body and his feet. The instinctive appreciation for physics and metaphysics that make up the spiritual game within the game. The beat of the music allows us to appreciate his sense of rhythm as he dances with the tennis ball. This video captures the sublime nature of the sport that we all love so fiercely...so passionately.

A special thanks back at you Brother for this gift...this work of art. With respect and love for this special gift. As I watch this...I hallucinate and see myself floating on the tennis court stinging the ball from all positions, gathering my energy and my karma into each and every shot as if my whole life and being depended upon it. Such is the nature of this work. Art in its purest form should do this to the admirer...it sends you into another world...into the mind of the artist. Where we can share the madness of his most lucid moment. As crazy as that sounds!

The song...yes, the song. The lyrics. Those haunting words. I am gone baby. But I'll be back. In another form. In another life. Another world. Shaman's are like that. They never really go away. I am still the spy...in the house of love.

[johnyandell]

Great discussion and yeah I love that song. Thanks for the lyrics...

Rog does an amazing array of things hitting 4 forehands in a row now doesn't he????

[stotty]

Stances

Stances are interesting. There are two schools of thought. Some teach semi-open from the off, others closed and neutral. With talented students I teach a mix of both. If Vinay is more comfortable with a closed stance, that's fine by me. The kid is 7 and has time aplenty to learn other stances.

With novices I ALWAYS teach closed stance...it works the best.

Fed's forehand is interesting. He uses all the stances. He can hit brilliant forehands off any stance. Stance hardly matters...you can hit off any foot...it's balance that counts. It's a once-you-know-the-rules-you-can-break-'em sort of thing.

The problem I have with a closed stance is that the hips act as a block...natural rotation gets obstructed. For top players it's the worst stance, the most ineffective. The neutral stance is great if you are moving up to a ball. But the semi-open stance seems to be the most widely used, certainly on the pro tour.

I understand the grips issue...weaker grips equal a more closed stance,etc. But that doesn't hold as true as many think with top players of the past. Nastase had a continental grip and hit semi open forehands all the time...he hit countless semi open stance backhands too.

Borg also hit countless semi open stance backhands in his career...it's true...just watch for yourself... in the very opening point of the clip below....then watch the rest of the clip...he does it many times. We always associate Borg with closed stance backhands...not true...when circumstances demanded he could comfortably reel out semi-open backhands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BwXwUzMLo

Semi open stance is associated with "modern tennis"...particularly on the backhand wing...but the more open stances were always in use...we were just ignorant back then and didn't notice such things.

I recently asked five coaches (all in their 50's, so remember Borg well) if Borg ever hit semi-open backhands. They all said no. They all had a mental picture of Borg hitting closed stance. I showed them the clip..they were shocked

But I digress, the thread is about kids starting out. It's about how to shape forehands to give them the best possible chance of possessing a dominant forehand shot.

I'll post again on exactly that subject soon...so easy to go off thread with these things...

[don_budge]

A Harvey Penick Idea...teach from the net backwards to beginners...including kids.

So I have been giving this matter quite a bit of thought, Stotty. This business of teaching tennis fundamentals. Shaping forehands, closed stances and eastern grips. It is not an easy task. Or is it?

Harvey Penick is an old golf teaching professional down in Austin, Texas I believe. He wrote a book called "The Little Red Book" from his years of taking notes in the golf teaching world. It's real folksy and down to earth. Harvey was under the radar although he had quite a following. Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite were a couple of his devoted students. He developed his teaching model by teaching the game from the hole out and back to the tee. He taught perhaps how to hit a one meter putt first then progressed to chipping, then pitching and then finally the full swing. It makes sense. A lot of sense. Which is a good reason why it is not the staple of the golf teaching world.

Not that I borrowed anything...or plagiarized. Or that I have not developed a completely new, imaginative and creative system for teaching tennis. But I have begun my latest beginners from the net backwards. I am teaching them to volley first and working them backward towards the baseline. This will also accomplish the student to not be shy about going to the net. I am bringing back the net game! Single handedly! Are you listening American Tennis...don_budge is calling you out!

When you have them stationary at the net to begin with, it is a bit more elementary to start them with closed stances and "weak" eastern grips. I am teaching underspin first. I am teaching volleys, half volleys and approach shots in that order first. You will be surprised how hard you can get a beginner to work when you get them going forwards and backwards from the service line to the net. Then we go back to the baseline to start driving the ball and begin to work on topspin.

To introduce the forehand volley I have the student catch the ball with the closed or neutral stance footwork and then I have them throw back the ball underhand with a proper footwork and follow through. Then I have them use their racquet and grip it up high and then move their grip progressively down the handle. The backhand I introduce as hitting the ball with the back of the hand with a short punch and proper footwork as well as the grip progression from the top of the handle to the bottom. It sort of surprised me to see that once they got back to the baseline that they were really reacting to the ball and trying to achieve the proper stance...trying to get their ass in position.

Starting at the net gets them to begin to react quicker to the ball coming back at them too. I borrow some of good old what's his names exercises...Oscar Wegner. I got my touring golf pro buddy Mikael Jonzon playing the game of tennis in three lessons...he catches on really quick. Plus there is a graduating nurse who is a dead ringer for Greta Garbo with exceptional ability and form (not necessarily in that order) that has more or less accomplished the same thing...alright her lessons were stretched out a bit. Just to make certain that everything was anatomically...I mean fundamentally correct. Was that a Freudian slip perchance?

I am very excited about the results so far.

[don_budge]

Gone Gone Gone (Done Moved On)-Alison Krauss

Gone Gone Gone (Done Moved On) by Alison Krauss

Some sunny day, baby
When everything seems okay, baby
You'll wake up and find that you're all alone
'Cause I'll be gone

Gone, gone, gone
Really gone
Gone, gone, gone
‘Cause you done me wrong

And everyone that you meet, baby
As you walk down the street, baby
Will ask you why you’re walkin’ all alone
And why you’re on your own

And just say I’m gone
Gone, gone, gone
Gone, gone, gone
‘Cause you done me wrong
Oh, now, come on, yeah!

And if you change your way, baby
You might get back to stay, baby
You better hurry up if you don’t wanna be alone
Or I’ll be gone

Gone, gone, gone
Really gone
Gone, gone, gone
‘Cause you done me wrong
You done me wrong, now, now!

Some sunny day, baby
When everything seems okay, baby
You’ll wake up and find that you’re alone
‘Cause I’ll be gone

Gone, gone, gone
Really gone
Gone, gone, gone
‘Cause you done me wrong

You done me wrong
You done me wrong
Well, well, well, well
Well, well, well, yeah

Lyrics to the song adapted for the Federer/Yandell "Forehand Not Gone" music tennis video. My favorite all time music and tennis video. Close seconds are the McEnroe/Lendl series. See "music videos" in the left hand column.

Some sunny day baby. When everything seems ok baby. Gone, gone, gone...cause you done me wrong. Well...well...well...yeah.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

[don_budge]

The Shape of Things to come...the Fedefore.

When you talk about determining the shape of something as ethereal as a forehand swing you had better pay attention to the base from which it is swung. The swing starts down below as the shamanic Ben Hogan suggests and it works it way up the body.

The consideration with respect to modern tennis is this...if you design and build your swing on open or even semi open stance you are limiting yourself to one option. Heavy topspin. Having the ability to apply heavy topspin is obviously an asset...but the ability to flatten the stroke out enhances ones chances of hitting for depth and penetration. In order to hit this kind of ball you will need to be able to perform your swing on a platform of a closed or neutral stance. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? In this case it must be the closed and neutral stances with an eastern grip because as you are finding out...once you go western you can never go back.

This being the case there is only one player in the game today from which to emulate. His name of course is Roger Federer...The Once and Future King. When he leaves the game the void is going to be so immense that you will hear a giant sucking sound as the air makes leaving a giant balloon. The vacuum that his absence will create in the professional game will be as profound as the difference between a world with cell phones...and one that was without.

Once again...it is the "Forehand Not Gone" video. A beautiful work of art that I never tire of seeing or listening to. Even the words of the song ring in my ears to haunt me as a message to all of those beautiful women that I loved...and lost. A wistful tear can form in my eye when I think of them. But oh well...I am, or rather was a tennis player. Past tense...like them. Of all people I should realize that love means nothing. It is the irony of life in the end...at the end of the night. Good old Ferdinand.

Where was I...oh yes. Roger Federer hitting from less than perfect position. Because the base of his swing is built on the foundation of a closed or neutral stance he is compelled to swing his forehand with his feet, body and racquet lined up when he begins his move forward to the ball. Hitting from a less than perfect position...is an art. I am sure that you will agree with me when you look at this video. This is a beautiful enigmatic piece of work courtesy of John Yandell. Who is the artist of the song...btw John?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

In the music video "Forehand Not Gone", Roger Federer is hitting four forehands from less than perfect position. Notice though that he dutifully attempts to create perfect position at the moment of impact.

fh 1...backing up, left foot plants first and as he swings into the ball the right foot is backing up in line with the front

fh 2...moving to his right, right foot plants first and left comes swinging into line as he swings into the ball

fh 3...backing up, left foot plants first and right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

fh 4...backing up, left foot plants first and the right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

In the video Roger is swinging at four forehands and in three of them he is running around his backhand to his left. Since his momentum is carrying him to his left he plants his left foot first to assure himself that he has ample room to make his swing yet at the same time his right foot is backing up to bring himself into alignment with the ball. You see also that he must make a last moment adjustment by taking to the air to create just a bit more room to make his swing. Yet his head and body are perfectly still at the moment of impact.

In the single ball that he is moving to his right, at the last moment he plants his right foot a bit forward towards the net from his left foot as he tries to take the ball a bit earlier and at the same time his left foot is moving towards the ball so that at the moment of impact he is in as close to proper alignment with the ball as humanly possible.

The music video is simply a perfect example of how the forehand should be played when perfect position on the ball is not possible. Normally when I am watching Federer in a match, I like to watch just him without taking my eyes off him to watch the ball or his opponent. Coincidentally, I heard Rod Laver suggest the same thing. For instance, in the music video one can really appreciate the grace and perfect balance that Federer has when he is in the moment of truth...and that is when he has his body aligned to make his move on the ball from “get in position”. Even when he is actually in the air, off the ground, he is somehow able to achieve nearly perfect stability as he is swinging and this is evidenced with the still positioning of his head. He has the ability to achieve the Hoganesque lower body movement to the ball to initialize his swing...even with less than perfect position.

Another absolutely stunningly, brilliant music video...John. Catchy tune, too. The music coupled with the maestro's footwork and low center of gravity create...poetry in motion. Be still my beating heart!

[don_budge]

Proper position of the feet...or Lower body Fundamentals ala Hogan

So why is it that the position of the feet is so important? Golfers, unlike tennis players, always begin their swings from stationary positions. Each golfer spends years learning to correctly build their stance in order that they can build a swing around it. Shaping their swings. With this in mind...remember that tennis is "golf on the run".

Every golfer up until this point has chosen to build their golf swing around a rather neutral stance...except of course perhaps "Happy Gilmore". Golfers will, however, adjust their stance accordingly from slightly closed to slightly open depending upon how they will shape a particular shot. But the default position is plus or minus...neutral. This is the position to correctly teach tennis players to swing their tennis racquets on the forehand side...the default position ought to be the neutral or slightly closed position. Like Federer...you cannot argue with this guy.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

I am going to pass along a very vital tip...from none other than Ben Hogan...the golfing icon. I have a tape of Ben Hogan and Sam Snead playing a match on an old TV series called “Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf”. These two golfing legends play a match at the Houston Country Club and afterwards both Snead and Gene Sarazan both exclaim that they have never seen a finer round of golf played than the one just completed by Hogan...he was flawless. At the conclusion of the match Sarazan asks both golfers for their comments on the most important part of the golf swing and this is what Hogan had to say.

“The most important thing of the golf swing to me, is the movement of the lower body from the top of the swing (“get in position” position). First of all, it starts down below with your knees and your hips. At the top of the swing you move the lower part of your body, not your shoulders...letting your shoulder, arms and hands bring you into position to hit. This is the first movement there (Hogan demonstrates that as he turns his hips from the top of his swing his hands come down into position without any movement from his hands) then you release at the bottom of the swing.”

After watching your videos and reading the preceding comments I felt compelled to comment on the importance of the action of the lower body in the swing...whether it be a tennis swing, a golf swing or swinging a baseball bat. There are certain fundamentals that one should be strongly advised to observe when transferring the weight of the body to most efficiently transfer the energy into the racquet head and subsequently into the ball. In order to make this most fundamental move to the ball...your feet must be in the proper position.

My contention is that any forehand that is shaped around open or semi open stances are going to have certain characteristics that are going to infringe on the maximum potential of the swing later on down the line. Forehands that are shaped around open and semi open stances tend to be too dependent upon arm motion without having the strong base underneath it from which to make maximum use of the power of the lower body.

This is fundamentally speaking of course. Tennis is a game of offense and defense so of course one must learn to swing from different stances but the default position ought to be the closed or neutral stance. Especially for beginners or fledglings.

[don_budge]

My Opening Salvo...I am back.

I have gone from being stranded on Gilligan's Island to stranded at Green Acres (my wife being the Hungarian Zsa Zsa Gabor character). The problem with technology is what do you do when nature takes control as she did here last week and knocked out our phone and internet with her thunder and lightning. What do you do? Not much...basically you are screwed, shit out of luck. You can't fight Mother Nature. Finally today...a new modem and back in the cyber flow of things. I have been reading this thread on my new iPhone and chomping at the bits...I am making a serious effort to catch up in the technology department. It's child's play compared to mastering the game of tennis or golf.

But here we go Stotty my friend. With all due respect I heartily disagree with you here on the footwork issue. Keeping in mind my motto is still...the book is Tilden, the model is Gonzales with the Budge backhand, the coach is Hopman and Federer is living proof.

As far as I am concerned philosophically you have veered off course with this lackadaisical approach to footwork. But rest assured you are not alone...the rest of the herd are heading over the cliff as well. So the question is...do you want to follow or lead?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

This is what your ideal forehand position looks like when you are examining arguably the best all around forehand in the game. Notice the position of the feet. Just look at and admire the position that Roger Federer is in when he is set to go forward...three vectors or lines. Feet, body and racquet. If you are shaping forehands these days this is option one, two and three. That being said there are bound to be differences of opinion.

When Roger is in position to be really aggressive on the forehand side this is how he looks. When he lines up all of the vectors involved in his swing...his feet, body and racquet, he is in position and balanced to make his most effective swing. This is the position from which he will attempt most of his winners or forcing shots. If he is in less than perfect position...he instinctively realizes it and in turn he will play a more neutralizing or defensive shot. You can bet the farm, though, that Roger will do every thing humanly possible to get in perfect position as often as he can. He understands that this dramatically increases his chances of creating a successful shot...and enable him to dictate play. This is a big part of the struggle between two tennis players...which one will get in the better position more often when they hit their shots.

Stay tuned. There is more to this story. Listen up...American tennis.

Btw...I just finished watching "The Man and The Maestro" send Del Potro packing to go back home to Buenos Aires...19-17 in the third set. Setting up a match for the gold. Not bad for an old guy...of 31. Djokovic or Murray?

[stotty]

Rick Macci

I think most coaches and parents could do with listening to Rick in this clip. It ought to be mandatory.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=3515

[stotty]

Grips and Stances

Agreed, each kid has their own timeline based on how things are progressing. Eastern has been the best starting point for the majority of my students. I don't want them going full western "accidentally".

We're on the same page with this one! Going full western "accidentally" is likely to happen if a child is given a semi western grip from the get-go. It always seems to shift round that little bit more, doesn't it?

The other key issue is that of which stance to teach. Vinay in the clip hits with a closed stance and is really comfortable with that. He gets confused separating semi open with closed or neutral.. I am just leaving him with what he is comfortable with for now. The other boys can hit off a semi open stance or a neutral stance without confusion.

A closed stance works well for Vinay at the moment. He clouts the ball harder than the other three kids put together. When the time is right I will introduce him to the other stances.

A performance centre not far from me teaches all children, regardless of ability, to hit with a semi-open stance. I never do this. If children are clueless, I always teach closed/neutral stance. If they have ability, I still teach a neutral stance but introduce them to a semi-open stance as soon as the times seems right. There seems to be two different schools of thought on this one, though.