Mardy Fish Arm Action in New High Speed Fhs

[julian1]

Please compare with Tsonga

I love the graphics in those clips, Julian. Finally, I understand what Doug Eng meant when he refers to the "boot".

But I still think Mardy's hand is too far behind his body on his forehand. I recognize the importance of the ssc, but he is creating momentum away from the target and he has to overcome that. I think that has to reduce consistency and accuracy even thought the power loss may be mitigated be the longer length of the stroke approaching contact. And I do think there is also a loss of power.

don

please see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uTbt0xvhnQ

Please stay in shade.

[stotty]

Hand position

its more about racquet position relative to the body plane as oppose to hand position. Its all about getting the ssc effect from the flip. Fish is using this flip.

Isn't the racket position governed by the hand/wrist position?

I have struggled to follow this thread in terms of the relevance of the hand position causing errors. I've looked at Federer's hand position in the archive and, yes, I can see the difference between his and Fish's, but I cannot see why the anomaly would cause errors as is thought.

(Don, how is Fish's hand position "creating momentum away from the target"?)

I think the racket head/tip pointing forward so late in the backswing is a complexity likely to cause errors.

I have found this thread interesting, however. The more I see Fish's forehand, the odder it looks.

We need a bunch of those fancy red lines to compare Mardy's hand position with other pro's.

I say bring in BG on this one.

[tennis_chiro]

Take a look at these two: Fish and Fed

Isn't the racket position governed by the hand/wrist position?

I have struggled to follow this thread in terms of the relevance of the hand position causing errors. I've looked at Federer's hand position in the archive and, yes, I can see the difference between his and Fish's, but I cannot see why the anomaly would cause errors as is thought.

(Don, how is Fish's hand position "creating momentum away from the target"?)

I think the racket head/tip pointing forward so late in the backswing is a complexity likely to cause errors.

I have found this thread interesting, however. The more I see Fish's forehand, the odder it looks.

We need a bunch of those fancy red lines to compare Mardy's hand position with other pro's.

I say bring in BG on this one.

Stotty, I agree with you that the racket head tip is a potential and probable problem. But try looking at these two clips to see the difference and the somewhat more circular nature of Fish's approach to the ball. True, the racket head doesn't more as much inside, relatively, as his had does, but it still moves a lot more inside than Fed's. I don't know. Your point about the tip of Fish's racket head may be more important and causing the flaw I am seeing here, but, for me, clearly, there is a flaw in Fish's forehand. He can't change it completely; too late. But I do think he could reduce it a little bit and that might help him find a more effective forehand.

Here are the comparable clips. Try to grab the handle and run the clip quickly through the part of the stroke we are talking about, back and forth. It would be nice to have some red lines up there on the path of the racket head, but if you run it back and forth quickly, you will see the difference in the paths.

Fish arm action, Inside/In, Rear view 2, 240 fps

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Mardy_Fish_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/MF_FH_Arm_Action&stroke=FH%20InsideIn%20ArmAction%20Rear2%20240fps.mp4

Comparable grip
Roger Federer, arm action, Inside/In, rear view 2, 250 fps

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Arm_Action&stroke=RFFHInsideInArmActionRear2_250fps.mp4

don

PS One of things I really liked in the clip comparing Tsonga and Djokovic was how stable Djokovic's head was through the stroke. No question, Djoker has a more stable and reliable forehand even if Tsonga's may at times be a little bigger.

[bottle]

Arm straightening is more a part of transition in Fish. Arm straightening is more a part of a unified backswing in Federer and Djokovic.

But who seriously gives a flying fish unless it's a person monkeying to improve his own forehand? The more I detect the lack of this connection the more I feel I'm reading scholarly blooh-bah or excessive "classification."

I now regret suggesting that a forehand aspirant should thread a bamboo pole through his elbows and behind his back the way a golfer sometimes does to develop proper feel for the solidity of the pre-sling part of the forward forehand.

One ought to thread the bamboo pole through elbows IN FRONT OF THE BODY instead since a main idea of the new research which has infused us all is to keep one's forehand on hitting side of the body at all times.

This thinking relates to John Yandell's work on renewing John McEnroe's serve as well, where John was telling John to keep the arm action on hitting side and not let it get behind the back.

One irony in all of this is that the more one fools with placing arms at different points ON HITTING SIDE, the greater the opportunity for increased body turn whether from stance, step-out or anything else.

In Julian's film in # 16, Djokovic lifts his elbow to begin the backswing (not to begin the unit turn) just the way that Federer does.

Well, why is it important to say something like that? Because most players don't know it! They throw their arm around at that point like there's no tomorrow. They don't keep elbow still the way Djokovic and Federer then do to establish solidity in the swing.

[julian1]

A stretch-shortening cycle or stretch-shortening CYCLES

I love the graphics in those clips, Julian. Finally, I understand what Doug Eng meant when he refers to the "boot".

But I still think Mardy's hand is too far behind his body on his forehand. I recognize the importance of the ssc, but he is creating momentum away from the target and he has to overcome that. I think that has to reduce consistency and accuracy even thought the power loss may be mitigated be the longer length of the stroke approaching contact. And I do think there is also a loss of power.

don

Don,

to digress a bit multiple stretch-shortening cycles are possible here
INSTEAD of single stretch-shortening cycle.

Possible groups of muscles are:
1.biceps
2.triceps
3.muscles of forearm
4.muscles of shoulder

To some degree elbow extension maybe related to those
multiple stretch shortening cycles
Those cycles are probably overlapping
A quote from the book
Muscles for forehand acceleration
Forearm pronation-forearm pronators
Elbow extension/flexion-biceps
Upper arm internal rotation-latissimus dorsi,pectoralis major,subscapularis
Hand flexion(forward)/hand flexion(sidewards-toward little finger)-wrist flexors

If you know more on this subject please let me know

Regards,
Julian

[bottle]

I guess my post didn't happen.

[stotty]

I guess my post didn't happen.

It certainly did happen.

Arm straightening is more a part of transition in Fish. Arm straightening is more a part of a unified backswing in Federer and Djokovic.


I read that well. No one writes these things like you, bottle.