Mardy Fish Arm Action in New High Speed Fhs

[tennis_chiro]

I think it is significant that Mardy's hand moves much more behind the plane of his shoulders than the other forehands in the high speed archive: Fed, Djoker, Nadal and Murray. Mardy's backhand is generally rock solid, but the forehand has often been a bit of a liability.

I've seen him hit a lot of great wide forehands when he really unleashes it, but I don't think he gets as much behind his body when he hits that shot.

Anyone?

don

[don_budge]

Very interesting...tennis_chiro. Hips!

Could you please explain a bit more about what you are referring to tennis_chiro? I think it is an interesting point.

My impressions of the Fishy forehand (Fishyfore) is that it is a very high backswing with respect to the height of the racquet head. Not uncommon these days with the high bouncing balls on the surfaces engineered in the present. Incredible array of shots johnyandell!

One thing that I really like about his technique is the use of his left hand. It is very difficult to impress upon students how important it is to involve the opposite side of the body in the stroke. By keeping the left fin, I mean hand, on the racquet for the duration of his backswing Mardy manages to turn his body to the ball. Since he is basically hitting most of his forehands out of the open stance position it is imperative that he turns his shoulders and just as importantly his hips to the ball.

Sometimes I find it difficult to understand as to why the modern players are playing everything in the open stance as the default position...but as we talked about in your email, much of this may have to do with recovering for the next shot. It seems that only Federer is hell bent on planting that left foot forwards when possible... but then again, he is a bit of a throwback to classic tennis. Regardless...even when playing the open stance as the default position it is absolutely necessary to turn the body or else you have weakened yourself by swinging with an arm only motion. Brian Gordon would agree with this...I think.

[tennis_chiro]

Type I FH backswing in a top 10 ATP player

Could you please explain a bit more about what you are referring to tennis_chiro? I think it is an interesting point.

My impressions of the Fishy forehand (Fishyfore) is that it is a very high backswing with respect to the height of the racquet head. Not uncommon these days with the high bouncing balls on the surfaces engineered in the present. Incredible array of shots johnyandell!

One thing that I really like about his technique is the use of his left hand. It is very difficult to impress upon students how important it is to involve the opposite side of the body in the stroke. By keeping the left fin, I mean hand, on the racquet for the duration of his backswing Mardy manages to turn his body to the ball. Since he is basically hitting most of his forehands out of the open stance position it is imperative that he turns his shoulders and just as importantly his hips to the ball.

Sometimes I find it difficult to understand as to why the modern players are playing everything in the open stance as the open stance...but as we talked about in your email, much of this may have to do with recovering for the next shot. It seems that only Federer is hell bent on planting that left foot forwards when possible... but then again, he is a bit of a throwback to classic tennis. Regardless...even when playing the open stance as the default position it is absolutely necessary to turn the body or else you have weakened yourself by swinging with an arm only motion. Brian Gordon would agree with this...I think.

I haven't checked carefully, but I think Mardy is probably the only player ranked as high as he is who uses what Brian Gordon is calling a WTA backswing on his forehand. I am more acutely aware of this problem because I've been trying to correct it on a promising junior I am working with. Essentially, getting his right hand so far behind the plane of his shoulders forces him into too circular a forward swing. I think this contributes to the inconsistency of his forehand.

On the other hand, I occasionally see him hit a very aggressive, somewhat flatter forehand from deep in the deuce corner and almost off the court which I wish he would use more often. I think on that particular shot, he uses more of what Brian calls his ATP or Type III backswing and is thus able to generate a lot more momentum and power in the direction of his shot.

Coming back to exactly what I mean, on some of the front views of Mardy's forehand, you can actually see his hand become visible behind his back; not just the racket head, but his hand. I think that is a major flaw.

don

[don_budge]

Example please...

Can you provide a video that best exemplifies this feature of the Fishyfore? I think that I understand what you are saying but perhaps an example may make it clear.

[GeoffWilliams]

That's an interesting observation.

[tennis_chiro]

WTA/Type II backswing

Can you provide a video that best exemplifies this feature of the Fishyfore? I think that I understand what you are saying but perhaps an example may make it clear.

I think this one shows it pretty clearly:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Mardy_Fish_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/MF_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20240fps.mov

I don't have a clip that shows him hitting the shot that I like, but the following clip is a little closer to an ATP/Type III backswing:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Mardy_Fish_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/MF_FH_Wide&stroke=FH%20Wide%20OpenStance%20Rear2%20120fps.mov

don

[stotty]

Somethings are a no-no with me.

I think this one shows it pretty clearly:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Mardy_Fish_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/MF_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20240fps.mov

I don't have a clip that shows him hitting the shot that I like, but the following clip is a little closer to an ATP/Type III backswing:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Mardy_Fish_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/MF_FH_Wide&stroke=FH%20Wide%20OpenStance%20Rear2%20120fps.mov

don

I don't see this as a major flaw or anything that significant. By far the most significant problem for me is that the tip of the racket starts to point forwards towards the end of the backswing, making the transition from backswing to forward swing much more complex than in most world-class players. Ryan Sweeting does a similar thing. His tip points forward right from the start and until very late in the backswing. This is a terribly dicey thing to be doing when the shot's under duress (fast incoming balls) or when the player is nervous. I've seen it work with some players but on the whole it's a technical no-no with me. I could never have faith in a forehand like that.

In world-class terms this is not a great shot.

[jperedo]

Clearly type 3.

Upper arm is very much internally rotated until initiation of the flip.

[julian1]

Which clip are you referring to?

Clearly type 3.

Upper arm is very much internally rotated until initiation of the flip.

Which clip are you referring to?

[jperedo]

Which clip are you referring to?

All of them .

[tennis_chiro]

Type 3?

Clearly type 3.

Upper arm is very much internally rotated until initiation of the flip.

I thought Brian Gordon outlined the position of the racket hand in the takeback as one of his hallmarks of a type 3 backswing; that is, the hand always stayed in front of the plane of his body/shoulders. Some of the shots are closer to that, but in general, I find Mardy's hand too far behind that plane, creating too much of a circular approach to the ball, more like the WTA backswing. True, he tries to straighten it out as he goes forward more like the normal ATP swing, but I think that position causes a lot of his inconsistency on his forehand.

don

[jperedo]

I thought Brian Gordon outlined the position of the racket hand in the takeback as one of his hallmarks of a type 3 backswing; that is, the hand always stayed in front of the plane of his body/shoulders. Some of the shots are closer to that, but in general, I find Mardy's hand too far behind that plane, creating too much of a circular approach to the ball, more like the WTA backswing. True, he tries to straighten it out as he goes forward more like the normal ATP swing, but I think that position causes a lot of his inconsistency on his forehand.

don

its more about racquet position relative to the body plane as oppose to hand position. Its all about getting the ssc effect from the flip. Fish is using this flip.

[julian1]

Trajectory of the atp forehand

its more about racquet position relative to the body plane as oppose to hand position. Its all about getting the ssc effect from the flip. Fish is using this flip.

Hi,
you maybe interested
in the post

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2117

[tennis_chiro]

Love the clips and graphics

Hi,
you maybe interested
in the post
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...ead.php?t=2117

I love the graphics in those clips, Julian. Finally, I understand what Doug Eng meant when he refers to the "boot".

But I still think Mardy's hand is too far behind his body on his forehand. I recognize the importance of the ssc, but he is creating momentum away from the target and he has to overcome that. I think that has to reduce consistency and accuracy even thought the power loss may be mitigated be the longer length of the stroke approaching contact. And I do think there is also a loss of power.

don

[bottle]

[QUOTE=tennis_chiro;18036]I love the graphics in those clips, Julian. Finally, I understand what Doug Eng meant when he refers to the "boot".

I guess I still don't understand how to make the quoted part (above) turn a different color, as everybody else mastered decades ago. Why me? Why am I the only one who can't do it?

There certainly is a lot of steepness in Djoker's racket head path. And the descending part of the top arc resembles Roger's in that it is accomplished by straightening of the elbow even though not as much.