Yikes ! (seeing my serve on video)

[don_budge]

The Serve, The Toss, The Nerves...

Today, I tried to swing with a continuous motion, and interestingly enough, it felt and looked smooth on camera, but I lost a lot of power. E.

Interesting response...any chance of seeing that latest video footage before I reply to your response. As you mentioned in the beginning "video don't lie".

People don't lie either...just ask them. But they sure can be deceptive.

[evikshin]

I will have to re-shoot using my own camera. I used my wife's cell phone camera to film it (I decided on a whim I wanted to practice my serve, and was not fully prepared), and we're not sure how to transfer it onto the computer. Again, are you advocating a low toss and hitting the ball at the top of the toss? Because you said that if it drops more than a decimeter, the toss is too high. A decimeter is 10 centimeters. It clearly looks to me like the pros let the ball drop a good deal (see John Yandell's articles on the toss) I can see that a low toss can promote a more continuous motion, but may generate other problems?

E.

[evikshin]

The 11 oclock toss postion allowed him to go to the back hand. He tossed a little to the right to go out wide, but not so much that it was readable. Excellent command of the toss. I never saw him catch one since 89.

Hi Geoff, did he really vary his toss? In the stroke archives, the toss looks exactly the same to me.
E.

[GeoffWilliams]

He varies it by about 1'-6", but it's hard to read. He was an extremely good tosser.

[evikshin]

He varies it by about 1'-6", but it's hard to read. He was an extremely good tosser.

I see. I guess 1-6 inches would be impossible to see unless we had a super close up with consistent points of reference.
When serving out wide on the deuce court, should I toss it slightly more to the right, versus serving down the T? I ask because if I try to serve out wide with a toss that is too far left, the ball kicks back to the left instead of slicing away.

E.

[evikshin]

All the top servers lag the drop. Delay adds power as the frame has to catch up to the shoulders. Fed does, Becker, Sampras, Raonic, etc. When Sampras begins his drive up, the frame has not even reached vertical yet. I say, accentuate that pause, and lag it even more, as that is a natural way for you.

Hi Geoff, do you mean that I should accentuate the pause at the trophy position? I'm torn between trying to make the motion perfectly continuous versus having a pause. As I was saying to Don, the pause, or hesitation, feels very natural, but when I try to eliminate it, my serve goes out of whack. I will be posting video soon of both styles of serve. If I can serve with a continuous motion, I would do it, as it looks more pleasing to the eye.

[don_budge]

30 degrees to your right...

BTW...please include a shot that is 30 degrees to your right from the front view. This is the best position from which to view. The other angles are important as well. Video can deceive as well...that is why it is important that you have all of the angles.

You see...you and I may be seeing the same thing but from different points of view. You are there and I am here. The continuous motion in the long run is the only motion that makes sense. That is not to say that there is not a degree of separation between going backwards and going forwards...what you and geoffwilliams are referring to as the trophy position.

The combination of your next videos and your old ones are going to tell quite a story. I may be camping out here on an island in a Swedish lake for several days but with my new iPhone and iPad I may be able to give some thoughtful analysis out in the freedom of nature. The wonders of technology...cyber space has no limits!

[stotty]

Classic is best

Most tops players don't stop in the trophy position, or do so only for a fraction of time. Federer eases into his...not sure he quite stops.

It's all about storing up elastic energy. Pause too long and all the energy disappears and gets lost. Ease or pause for an imperceptible fraction and elastic energy is maximised. Your pause seems too long and the serve becomes almost two parts...it's a common problem....many good league players do it.

You may lose power at first by trying a more continuous swing...who wouldn't when trying something new...give it time and you could well end up with more power.

Federer does it more perfectly than any other player I can think of. He can 130mph all day long. His epic Wimbledon final against Roddick was the best serving I have seen. He out aced Roddick and became unbreakable in that fifth set. He served around 50 aces if memory serves me right. Federer has a classic serve, classic serves are the best. Not only are they the most beautiful service motions, they are the most effective too.

[GeoffWilliams]

Hi Geoff, do you mean that I should accentuate the pause at the trophy position? I'm torn between trying to make the motion perfectly continuous versus having a pause. As I was saying to Don, the pause, or hesitation, feels very natural, but when I try to eliminate it, my serve goes out of whack. I will be posting video soon of both styles of serve. If I can serve with a continuous motion, I would do it, as it looks more pleasing to the eye.

Why would you eliminate something that feels natural, and that adds power? Lag it even more to the non vertical, so the frame is leaning towards the back fence, before you leg drive/ Sampras method did that. No pause but he lagged slowly, and the frame had to catch up due to that lag.

[evikshin]

Thanks a lot for the responses guys. Don, I will shoot some video with the 30 degree angle you requested.

Geoff/LicensedCoach, I'm going to try the arm lag to see if smooths things out. I think I naturally have a high toss with a slower rhythm, however my arm moves too fast and reaches trophy position too soon, hence the pause. I just read Doug Eng's Service Rhythm articles and it is very clear where I fit in.

E