Brian Gordondynamic slot forehand question

[alexandrafranco]

I just tried the ball can exercise..concentrating on keeping the internal rotation of the shoulder so that I get the flip effect! thank you 10splayer!

[BrianGordon]

Sorry guys - bunch of my kids are competing all over S FL this weekend - been tied up. So yeah, sorry about the wording but it is not as easy as it might seem.

Hitting side means laterally (in a direction parallel to the baseline) to the right for a right hander. So at the forward swing initiation the elbow is right of the torso, the hand is right of the the elbow, the the racquet head is right of and above the hand. All of these rights mean while the entire arm/racquet is essentially toward the back fence they are also at a slight skew to the right relative to the trunk.

This allows the hand path to be more direct to contact, hence applying a force perfectly oriented to cause the "flip" given the orientation of the racquet at the time.

Seems that 10splayer has a great handle on the concept - things that will screw up the described arm/racquet configuration are external rotation of the shoulder and/or supination of the forearm and/or wrist extension DURING THE BACKSWING LOOP - as he so correctly states below - these should happen during the forward swing due to the flip.

At the above mentioned point in the backswing, if the wrist is extended,(laid back, butt cap to ball) the arm would be externally rotated. (at least as I see it) The whole key here is not allow the arm to be rotated externally, until the pull and flip.

[spacediver]

thanks for the clarification Brian.

One more question (and if you choose to defer your response in the form of your upcoming articles, I completely understand):

from what i could gather, this critical set of joint configurations are to be set up at the bottom of the loop.

But what about the top of the loop? My understanding was that the positions at the bottom of the loop are largely a result of motion dependent effects. So what configuration should the joints be in at the top of the loop, to ensure that once the hip and torso start to rotate, the joint positions are in the correct configuration at the bottom of the loop?

[tennis_chiro]

Don't get it

You can try this. (if you like) Take an old tennis can and step up to the top of the backswing. (before you lay it down) Your hand should be on top of the can palm down, with the closed end facing the right net post. Make sure your elbow is up and leading back and begin the downswing. Make sure, and this is a key, to keep the closed end oriented towards the the net post, or at the very least, directly sideways (towards the side fence)

As u reach the bottom, rotate the open end of the can towards the right net post. Your arm is now externally rotated. (butt cap to ball/setting up the hitting arm structure). The whole key here is to NOT allow the arm to rotate externally (open end of can forward) in the backswing.

Of course this move is dynamic, but sometimes it's a good idea to slowly step through it, to see how it works. Hope this helps.

I don't get it. Is the top of the can the open end of the can? Or is this more like the flashlight visualization? Help. A simple clip on youtube would really be great.

don

[tennis_chiro]

I think I understand, but I'm still questioning

Okay, I've reread the article again. I still don't get it about 10splayer's ball can, but I think I understand Brian's article. (And I have tried it on the court, Bottle. It's pretty much the same stroke I've been teaching for about 10 years now, except for the violent nature of the "flip".) However, I still question (and I say question because I really don't know the answer although I have my suspicions) whether or not having as much extension/flexion of the wrist in the "flip" is really a good idea. Tennis is still Consistency, Accuracy and Power and I have always really discouraged that much movement, particularly what is demonstrated by Brian's students. Federer has always been recognized as being on the high end as far as how much of that move he has. A lot of players make the "flip" without quite that much movement in the wrist. And even Federer manages to make that move well before he is actually striking the ball and the wrist flexion/extension is much reduced through the actual contact zone. In fact, he is noted for taking the racket through the ball much more than his contemporaries; is that evidence that his wrist is no longer moving so much through the contact zone? Perhaps you can get more racket head speed with that violent "flip", but at what cost to consistency and accuracy? How long will it take to learn to calm that wrist down when you are getting near the contact zone? Brian seems to be saying my concerns are groundless and his students are learning just fine. I'm anxious the see the "flip" of huge forehands of somewhat less talented athletes than the top three like Berdych or Isner? Or somewhat less physically imposing athletes like Ferrer (although that's only really true in the dimension of height)?

I guess I can't wait to see the next article!

don

[spacediver]

another point of confusion for me is the description of the elbow relative to the shoulder:


"Watch the full unit turn with both hands on the racquet. Note that during the unit turn the elbow is perfectly positioned away from the torso and roughly in line with the shoulders."

"Recall that in the type 3 forehand that the elbow is elevated and away from the torso and in line with the shoulders."

Does this imply that the elbow is at the same height as the shoulder (i.e. the upper arm is roughly 90 degrees to the torso)?

If so, I just don't see that as a consistent feature in, for example, federer's forehand.

[stotty]

In line

I took it to mean the elbow falls roughly line with the shoulders as we look at a player executing a forehand from the rear? I didn't take the sentence to mean "height". I could be wrong, though. 10's or JY would need to clarify.

The article is a little denses in places. Without the video clips I would be at a loss to follow it. It is becoming clearer the more I read it...there's a lot to take in.

[10splayer]

I don't get it. Is the top of the can the open end of the can? Or is this more like the flashlight visualization? Help. A simple clip on youtube would really be great.

don

Ok Don, I'll try again. The closed end would represent the tip of the racquet, and the open end, the buttcap. So, at the top of the backswing before the drop, the hand would be palm down (on top of the can) with the closed end oriented more or less towards the right net post.

As I see it, the whole key to this move is to keep the arm from rotating externally. (buttcap/open can end to ball configuration) So, in the above example, the open end of the can throughout the backswing and lowering must never be allowed to align to the ball, until the turn and pull. ( I tell students to "hide" the open end/buttcap throughout the backswing)


Take a look at the young African American girl on the first page of the article. This represents a very obvious example of early external rotation. At the top of the backswing (even before she drops the racquet) She rotates her shoulder externally,(backwards rotation) supinates the forearm,(palm turned up as if holding a bowl) and extends her wrist (laid back). Essentially she has already set up the "hitting arm structure". (buttcap/open end of can to ball alignment) From this position, there is nothing to flip.

The men on tour, never establish this buttcap to ball alignment throughout the backswing, and thus external rotation is suppressed, until the turn and pull.

P.S I've been shocked and saddened by my inability to transfer my thoughts to paper and pen. It's just like I tell students, if you don't practice well then......

Anyway I hope this helps clarify.

[10splayer]

I just tried the ball can exercise..concentrating on keeping the internal rotation of the shoulder so that I get the flip effect! thank you 10splayer!

Glad it helped.

[BrianGordon]

another point of confusion for me is the description of the elbow relative to the shoulder:


"Watch the full unit turn with both hands on the racquet. Note that during the unit turn the elbow is perfectly positioned away from the torso and roughly in line with the shoulders."

"Recall that in the type 3 forehand that the elbow is elevated and away from the torso and in line with the shoulders."

Does this imply that the elbow is at the same height as the shoulder (i.e. the upper arm is roughly 90 degrees to the torso)?

If so, I just don't see that as a consistent feature in, for example, federer's forehand.

The elbow should be elevated such that there is about a 50 degree angle between the upper arm and trunk on most incoming balls - it is typically adjusted up for higher balls.

The relevance of this position is provide shoulder joint range of motion during early forward swing shoulder motion, and to orient the flexion/extension axis of the elbow such that the hand exits the descending portion of the loop (formed by elbow extension) at the correct height without dropping the arm at the shoulder (dropping elbow height) prior to the start of the forward swing.

[stroke]

Okay, I've reread the article again. I still don't get it about 10splayer's ball can, but I think I understand Brian's article. (And I have tried it on the court, Bottle. It's pretty much the same stroke I've been teaching for about 10 years now, except for the violent nature of the "flip".) However, I still question (and I say question because I really don't know the answer although I have my suspicions) whether or not having as much extension/flexion of the wrist in the "flip" is really a good idea. Tennis is still Consistency, Accuracy and Power and I have always really discouraged that much movement, particularly what is demonstrated by Brian's students. Federer has always been recognized as being on the high end as far as how much of that move he has. A lot of players make the "flip" without quite that much movement in the wrist. And even Federer manages to make that move well before he is actually striking the ball and the wrist flexion/extension is much reduced through the actual contact zone. In fact, he is noted for taking the racket through the ball much more than his contemporaries; is that evidence that his wrist is no longer moving so much through the contact zone? Perhaps you can get more racket head speed with that violent "flip", but at what cost to consistency and accuracy? How long will it take to learn to calm that wrist down when you are getting near the contact zone? Brian seems to be saying my concerns are groundless and his students are learning just fine. I'm anxious the see the "flip" of huge forehands of somewhat less talented athletes than the top three like Berdych or Isner? Or somewhat less physically imposing athletes like Ferrer (although that's only really true in the dimension of height)?

I guess I can't wait to see the next article!

don

I would say Federer is on the highest end ever for this Type 3 flip forehand. I think that is why Brian likes to use him in the video instruction portion of his instructional articles. I do not think his wrist is much of a component of his forehand. I thinks he gets the most violent flip into the incoming ball because of his grip(Brian points out in his article that more conservative grips like Federer allow for the most flip back action) and his straight arm. It seems to me that the straight arm also allows for the most backwards rotation. So to me Federer is maximizing the flip action position through his grip and his straight arm.

[spacediver]

The elbow should be elevated such that there is about a 50 degree angle between the upper arm and trunk on most incoming balls - it is typically adjusted up for higher balls.

The relevance of this position is provide shoulder joint range of motion during early forward swing shoulder motion, and to orient the flexion/extension axis of the elbow such that the hand exits the descending portion of the loop (formed by elbow extension) at the correct height without dropping the arm at the shoulder (dropping elbow height) prior to the start of the forward swing.

thanks, this makes sense.

[10splayer]

I would say Federer is on the highest end ever for this Type 3 flip forehand. I think that is why Brian likes to use him in the video instruction portion of his instructional articles. I do not think his wrist is much of a component of his forehand. I thinks he gets the most violent flip into the incoming ball because of his grip(Brian points out in his article that more conservative grips like Federer allow for the most flip back action) and his straight arm. It sems to me that the straight arm also allows for the most backwards rotation. So to me Federer is maximizing the flip action Boston through his grip and his straight arm.

Without going into speculative detail, which nobody wants to hear, I'll just say I agree with every point made here.

[stroke]

thanks 10splayer. I just noticed I had made a typo when I read your post. It is corrected. I had wrote "boston" somehow instead of "position".

[spacediver]

Well I tried following the advice from this blog post:

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-6.html

It seems very close to what Brian is suggesting, and it made a HUGE difference.

The key for me was simply pronating the elbow at the end of the backswing, and then allowing the elbow to supinate and then repronate in the contact zone.