Brian Gordondynamic slot forehand question

[spacediver]

I posted this in the thread dedicated to the article, but it got drowned out by other discussion.

"At the conclusion of the descending portion of the loop note the elbow is still elevated, the hand is to the hitting side of the elbow, and the racquet head is above, and to the hitting side of, the hand. The hitting arm and racquet are on a slight diagonal to the shoulder."

I gather that this terminology is probably standard in coaching circles, but I'm having difficulty visualizing what is meant. I'm assuming that "hitting side" roughly equates to "in front of", or in the zone between the body part in question and where the ball is.

So what would it mean to have the hand in the hitting side of the elbow? Does this mean that the wrist is flexed, so that the palm is in front of the elbow (and if it were hyperextended it would be behind, or on the non-hitting side of the elbow)?


similarly:

"But the most distinct difference is the position of the racquet in relation to the hand. In the Type 3 swing, the racquet head is on the hitting side of the hand as the hand starts to move forward. The racquet head is also above the hand, and the entire arm is extended away from the body toward the back fence on a slight diagonal skew to the hitting side."

what does this diagonal skew to the hitting side mean?

[10splayer]

I posted this in the thread dedicated to the article, but it got drowned out by other discussion.

"At the conclusion of the descending portion of the loop note the elbow is still elevated, the hand is to the hitting side of the elbow, and the racquet head is above, and to the hitting side of, the hand. The hitting arm and racquet are on a slight diagonal to the shoulder."

I gather that this terminology is probably standard in coaching circles, but I'm having difficulty visualizing what is meant. I'm assuming that "hitting side" roughly equates to "in front of", or in the zone between the body part in question and where the ball is.

So what would it mean to have the hand in the hitting side of the elbow? Does this mean that the wrist is flexed, so that the palm is in front of the elbow (and if it were hyperextended it would be behind, or on the non-hitting side of the elbow)?


similarly:

"But the most distinct difference is the position of the racquet in relation to the hand. In the Type 3 swing, the racquet head is on the hitting side of the hand as the hand starts to move forward. The racquet head is also above the hand, and the entire arm is extended away from the body toward the back fence on a slight diagonal skew to the hitting side."

what does this diagonal skew to the hitting side mean?

I"ll take a shot at B. "The racquet is on the hitting side of the hand====the wrist is neutral (not extended)IMO, this is a very important point. If the wrist is already extended at this stage, stretch shorten will be greatly diminished.

"racquet head is above the hand" pretty self explanatory.


"the entire arm is extended away from the body" Arm chair theory here. But, if you look at the FED video, it is pretty apparent that he pronates through the backswing. And if you do this, the arm actually tends to straighten. This would also explain (i think) how the elbow can stay "elevated" even as the hand can lower. Best guess, just playing around with this.

[stotty]

I agree with spacediver. The text is unclear and difficult to follow. As I carry out the descriptive process with a racket in my living room I find myself getting confused.

The ATP forehand has been a great thread, though. The work Brian has put in seems immense. Throughout my time on the Tennisplayer forum, I never known a thread attract so much interest and rack up so many posts in so short a time.

[alexandrafranco]

My guess in regards to "the hand is to the hitting side of the elbow"is that the hand is to the right diagonally and not behind, like Brian refers the hand exits the loop, meaning that the hand stays pronated in the backswing rather than supinating like in the type 1 and 2 forehand...and the flip occurs from the pronated hand to the supinated hand whereas the other two forehands by supinating in the backswing seem to lose the stretch shorten cycle effect... as Macci says in his DVD the elbow position is key in this type 3 forehand, starting out away from the body and extending the elbow diagonally... and by the way my bet on Stosur type 3 flaw is that she keeps her elbow close to her torso and not away but she keeps her hand pronated and therefore has great flip and use of stretch shorten cycle. What is your take on Stosur's forehand flaws?

[alexandrafranco]

In the article Gordon refers to "the most critical of these counter-rotations is of the upper arm (external rotation of the shoulder joint) and, to a lesser extent, the counter-rotation of the forearm (supination)" and he says the role of the wrist will surprise us.. so as Florian mentioned what is at stake here is the timing of external rotation of the shoulder, and usually women start external rotation of the shoulder in the backswing whereas the men will start in the forward swing and pronate close to contact.. so I don't understand 10splayer comment"the wrist is neutral (not extended)IMO, this is a very important point. If the wrist is already extended at this stage, stretch shorten will be greatly diminished."

[10splayer]

In the article Gordon refers to "the most critical of these counter-rotations is of the upper arm (external rotation of the shoulder joint) and, to a lesser extent, the counter-rotation of the forearm (supination)" and he says the role of the wrist will surprise us.. so as Florian mentioned what is at stake here is the timing of external rotation of the shoulder, and usually women start external rotation of the shoulder in the backswing whereas the men will start in the forward swing and pronate close to contact.. so I don't understand 10splayer comment"the wrist is neutral (not extended)IMO, this is a very important point. If the wrist is already extended at this stage, stretch shorten will be greatly diminished."

At the above mentioned point in the backswing, if the wrist is extended,(laid back, butt cap to ball) the arm would be externally rotated. (at least as I see it) The whole key here is not allow the arm to be rotated externally, until the pull and flip.

[10splayer]

In the article Gordon refers to "the most critical of these counter-rotations is of the upper arm (external rotation of the shoulder joint) and, to a lesser extent, the counter-rotation of the forearm (supination)" and he says the role of the wrist will surprise us.. so as Florian mentioned what is at stake here is the timing of external rotation of the shoulder, and usually women start external rotation of the shoulder in the backswing whereas the men will start in the forward swing and pronate close to contact.. so I don't understand 10splayer comment"the wrist is neutral (not extended)IMO, this is a very important point. If the wrist is already extended at this stage, stretch shorten will be greatly diminished."

Try this for yourself. Find the positions that Gordon recommends. Now, rotate the buttcap to the ball to simulate the "slot" position. Even though the racquet and arm never move behind the shoulder plane, the arm has to rotate substantially. In motion, (dynamically) this will really really load the arm.

[spacediver]

There are a couple things that are preventing me from understanding what Brian's recommended positions are.

1) the terminology is vague (to me).
2) it seems that these key positions occur at the bottom of the downward loop. But my understanding is that the positions at the bottom of the loop are a result of motion dependent forces generated by hip and torso rotation. So it's hard to build a prescriptive model of how to orient the body parts based on this information. Seems you'd need information about how to orient the body parts BEFORE the downwards loop begins.

I'm just gonna wait until he releases the more explicit biomechanical articles - hard to apply anything based on this article (for me).

[GeoffWilliams]

He means that the frame is towards the net, not behind the hand: hitting side is ahead of the hand.

I call it the snap back, not the flip, as snap back is more like what actually happens.

Every top pro snaps back, male. Women like the Argentine, Dulko, do not, and take huge back swings in comparison, yet produce fewer rpms although pace is similar.

Stosur also does not load as diagonally as the men do, (less shoulder coil) and her motion through the ball brushes up too much, and is too short, and that explains why she has a spinny, non penetrating forehand. No pressure, no voltage, no rmp/pace.

[johnyandell]

Uh, Geoff, you have no idea...

[johnyandell]

And my take on it. I adjusted my own forehand--just do a great unit turn--take the arm a little more to right and keep you racket head to the right of your hand and above before you start the forward swing. Magic.

[spacediver]

thanks, will try it out on sunday.

[10splayer]

In the article Gordon refers to "the most critical of these counter-rotations is of the upper arm (external rotation of the shoulder joint) and, to a lesser extent, the counter-rotation of the forearm (supination)" and he says the role of the wrist will surprise us.. so as Florian mentioned what is at stake here is the timing of external rotation of the shoulder, and usually women start external rotation of the shoulder in the backswing whereas the men will start in the forward swing and pronate close to contact.. so I don't understand 10splayer comment"the wrist is neutral (not extended)IMO, this is a very important point. If the wrist is already extended at this stage, stretch shorten will be greatly diminished."

You can try this. (if you like) Take an old tennis can and step up to the top of the backswing. (before you lay it down) Your hand should be on top of the can palm down, with the closed end facing the right net post. Make sure your elbow is up and leading back and begin the downswing. Make sure, and this is a key, to keep the closed end oriented towards the the net post, or at the very least, directly sideways (towards the side fence)

As u reach the bottom, rotate the open end of the can towards the right net post. Your arm is now externally rotated. (butt cap to ball/setting up the hitting arm structure). The whole key here is to NOT allow the arm to rotate externally (open end of can forward) in the backswing.

Of course this move is dynamic, but sometimes it's a good idea to slowly step through it, to see how it works. Hope this helps.

[GeoffWilliams]

Ok. That one made me say, "What?"

One thing is for sure, the forehand has become a sideways serve for many top pros, who can put these snap backed 100mph bombs virtually anywhere at any time they want to, while the rest of us struggle to attain a 70mph iffy shot.

Also a very astute observation of how different the womens' fh are from the men. I don't think that's due to less strength, or less determination, or less height. (Just look at Henin to disprove all of that.) A 130lb killer. So what is the difference due to other than early junior coaching?

While every top pro has a snap back fh, and so few women do? That's just strange.

[10splayer]

Ok. That one made me say, "What?"

One thing is for sure, the forehand has become a sideways serve for many top pros, who can put these snap backed 100mph bombs virtually anywhere at any time they want to, while the rest of us struggle to attain a 70mph iffy shot.

Also a very astute observation of how different the womens' fh are from the men. I don't think that's due to less strength, or less determination, or less height. (Just look at Henin to disprove all of that.) A 130lb killer. So what is the difference due to other than early junior coaching?

While every top pro has a snap back fh, and so few women do? That's just strange.

LOl. It's easier to show, than describe. Anyway, think it's time for me to step aside, and make room for you and bottle.