Spin on WTA Women's strokes

[shiuey]

Hi John,

As always I very much enjoy your site.

I had a question, do you have spin information on the top WTA women. My impression from looking at the videos is that the top women hit a much flatter ball than the top men. Is this verifiable using your camera techniques. If it is true that the women hit flatter shots, any ideas on why there is this difference?

Thanks.

EJ

[GeoffWilliams]

Kvitova's ground stroke speed on average was 74mph in wimby, and Berdychs was the same.

[10splayer]

Kvitova's ground stroke speed on average was 74mph in wimby, and Berdychs was the same.

geoff, what does that have to do with spin? Point is, the ball speed maybe somewhat similar, but berdychs ball will have a much higher spin rate, which means he is creating a hell of lot more racquet head speed.

[johnyandell]

It's a good question...but haven't developed any data...yet....

[GeoffWilliams]

It wasn't just similar it was identical. Don't know the rpm factor, but it would def. apply, although I'll bet that is near the same as well.

[10splayer]

It wasn't just similar it was identical. Don't know the rpm factor, but it would def. apply, although I'll bet that is near the same as well.

Disagree, they would not be similar spin rates. In fact that's the point. It's not particularly hard to get the ball to move at that velocity, but when it moves at that speed with a high spin rate, then you have a heavy ball------the real difference between the atp and wta default forehand and backhand.

[GeoffWilliams]

The real diff. is serve speed rpm, and foot speed. Groundies are not that diff., but the data is missing.

[10splayer]

The real diff. is serve speed rpm, and foot speed. Groundies are not that diff., but the data is missing.

I'll try one more time, and then perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree. Of course we have to be careful not to oversimplify this. A player is always trying to manipulate the ball in different ways, to fit into the court on any given shot line. And so there will be quite a disparity in spin/velocity ranges. However, as a general rule, the guys are playing with a lot more spin than the girls are.

If you look at even the most rudimentary shot patterns/exchanges between the two groups, it seems obvious the men are playing a much, much more east/west game than the girls.(who still play principally north/south, thru the court game) The ability to widen the court, stretch your opponent laterally, like you see on the ATP (much more prevelant), really gets down to one thing. A much higher spin rate. Not the kind of slow moving, loopy spin balls (ala Harold Soloman) but shots they're flighting out there about 75 miles an hour and nose diving. To me, the ball flights (atp/wta) are not even remotely similar. The ball speed maybe, but not the spin rates.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the concrete numbers.

p.s The serve and foot speed is real and valid. I would argue that the evolution of foot speed/athleticism is a direct result of higher default spin rates, which allows a player to widen the court. The coverage requirements in the mens game is just unbelievable.

[julian1]

WTA and a forehand spin

I'll try one more time, and then perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree. Of course we have to be careful not to oversimplify this. A player is always trying to manipulate the ball in different ways, to fit into the court on any given shot line. And so there will be quite a disparity in spin/velocity ranges. However, as a general rule, the guys are playing with a lot more spin than the girls are.

If you look at even the most rudimentary shot patterns/exchanges between the two groups, it seems obvious the men are playing a much, much more east/west game than the girls.(who still play principally north/south, thru the court game) The ability to widen the court, stretch your opponent laterally, like you see on the ATP (much more prevelant), really gets down to one thing. A much higher spin rate. Not the kind of slow moving, loopy spin balls (ala Harold Soloman) but shots they're flighting out there about 75 miles an hour and nose diving. To me, the ball flights (atp/wta) are not even remotely similar. The ball speed maybe, but not the spin rates.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the concrete numbers.

p.s The serve and foot speed is real and valid. I would argue that the evolution of foot speed/athleticism is a direct result of higher default spin rates, which allows a player to widen the court. The coverage requirements in the mens game is just unbelievable.

Probably the following post is helpful

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=384050&page=207

post #128

[bottle]

Berdych hits flat. Nearly everybody agrees on that. And that means less spin than these other djokers.

[johnyandell]

So I did some research while I was out here:

Azarenka fh average 1500rpm
Sharapova fhaverage 1400rpm

I also looked at Delpo who was 2200rpm

Suspect Berdych is around delpo or maybe a little flatter...

[10splayer]

So I did some research while I was out here:

Azarenka fh average 1500rpm
Sharapova fhaverage 1400rpm

I also looked at Delpo who was 2200rpm

Suspect Berdych is around delpo or maybe a little flatter...

I would assume that these two are amongst the flattest hitter's on the mens tour?

[johnyandell]

Good question--we just haven't measured enough to say. Raonic? Baghdatis? But when we did the first filming in 1997 on spin we saw some players on the men's side with numbers like the women.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/Spintest/spin_test.html

So the interesting next question to address in the relationship or the combinations between speed and spin...

[stotty]

Spin equals Height

It's average height over the net that interests me. I heard Ferrer averages 4 feet over the net on hard courts during baseline rallies. I have no idea what any of the women's stats are. Height over the net must be spin-related I guess.

[GeoffWilliams]

I'm just saying that there are going to be a lot of guys surprised to see how close the top women are in their groundies. The foot speed coverage factor is way off, however, as is the serve and the ability to return top serves, as their reactions are slower a bit, and that's all it takes, but to dev. top groundies is what they are all about these days, and we will even see them eschew an overhead so that they can hit a groundie, and the analogy is a free throw vs. a slam dunk. The groundie evolution of women's tennis has been striking, if any of you watch any old clips, and see how much those shots have improved. The overhead is not ten up either. I could never dunk, but I would never let one go to hit a groundie, and that's what 1/2 of them are doing now. It's a little sad, for a net player to see.