The Two-Handed Backhand

[johnyandell]

Share your thoughts on Rich Berman's video "The Two-Handed Backhand"

[bowt]

I think the grip change bit is wierd looks like he moves his right hand into a different grip rather than relaxing the hand and changing it with the left hand

I always keep my right hand neutral when changing grips rather than moving my right hand wrist into a different position

[jimlosaltos]

Role of left hand

Share your thoughts on Rich Berman's video "The Two-Handed Backhand"

Since I'm asking for my better half (she uses two hands, I prefer the classic one <g>), I risk exposing my naiveté more than usual, but ... I thought the supporting hand (left for righties) could come over aggressively to hit cross-courts.

I'm thinking of Andy Murray's backhand, in particular.

Wrong?

[johnyandell]

uh, the question is?

[bowt]

you dont think about what your arms do when you go for a crosscourt shot

[johnyandell]

Bowt,

I agree. More of a swing line issue. Visualizing the path of the racket and ball.

[jimlosaltos]

Left hand

uh, the question is?

While Alan doesn't exactly say 'don't use your wrists' he comes close.

Andy Murray's cross-courts look a good deal to my eye like what Alan is saying not to do -- that is he comes across, snapping his wrists with the top, left hand dominant. This is something TV commentators praise him for, e.g. "look how Murray snapped his left wrist to create that angled passing shot."

So, formulating this as a question Jeopardy style: How and when do you snap the wrists to control direction of the ball in the two-handed backhand?

[don_budge]

The Role of the Left Hand...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1972

I just love this little clip with Oscar Wegner...at the risk of drawing the ire of our own John Yandell. I use this exclusively in the teaching of the two hand backhand now...it seems to work just fine with students of all ages and abilities. It thoroughly examines the role of the left hand in the two hand backhand which I interpret to be virtually identical to that of a left hand forehand.

The wrist behaves as a hinge as it always does in any kind of shot...be it a golf shot, tennis shot, long shot or short shot. That being said I will never forget my dear old tennis coach Sherman Collins telling me that the professionals can definitely break some of the rules some of the time and here he made a point of the example of the wrist. Advanced players can and do use markedly different movements of the wrist other than the normal hinge in some shots and flicking a cross court passing shot may be a good example of this. I don't like the word "snapping" though when it comes to the movement of the wrist. I believe that the motion is a bit more subtle than that. Perhaps it would be suffice to say "rolling"...or in hinge jargon, a "slamming" of the door.

[jimlosaltos]

Thanks

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...ead.php?t=1972

I just love this little clip with Oscar Wegner...at the risk of drawing the ire of our own John Yandell. I use this exclusively in the teaching of the two hand backhand now...it seems to work just fine with students of all ages and abilities. It thoroughly examines the role of the left hand in the two hand backhand which I interpret to be virtually identical to that of a left hand forehand.

The wrist behaves as a hinge as it always does in any kind of shot...be it a golf shot, tennis shot, long shot or short shot. That being said I will never forget my dear old tennis coach Sherman Collins telling me that the professionals can definitely break some of the rules some of the time and here he made a point of the example of the wrist. Advanced players can and do use markedly different movements of the wrist other than the normal hinge in some shots and flicking a cross court passing shot may be a good example of this. I don't like the word "snapping" though when it comes to the movement of the wrist. I believe that the motion is a bit more subtle than that. Perhaps it would be suffice to say "rolling"...or in hinge jargon, a "slamming" of the door.

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate the feedback. / jim

[julian1]

Grip

I think the grip change bit is wierd looks like he moves his right hand into a different grip rather than relaxing the hand and changing it with the left hand

I always keep my right hand neutral when changing grips rather than moving my right hand wrist into a different position

Hi,
couple of thoughts
1.I do NOT think that the FINAL grips for a bottom and upper hands are defined in the video very well
There is a phrase "watch knucles overe" in the video

2.It would be interesting to compare this video
with

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/doug_eng/the_modern_two-handed_backhand_grips/

and

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/tour_strokes/doug_eng/the_modern_two-handed_building/

3.The demo presents practically a spinless/flat version ONLY
julian

[bowt]

While Alan doesn't exactly say 'don't use your wrists' he comes close.

Andy Murray's cross-courts look a good deal to my eye like what Alan is saying not to do -- that is he comes across, snapping his wrists with the top, left hand dominant. This is something TV commentators praise him for, e.g. "look how Murray snapped his left wrist to create that angled passing shot."

So, formulating this as a question Jeopardy style: How and when do you snap the wrists to control direction of the ball in the two-handed backhand?

you dont think about what your wrists are doing when you hit a shot

you are not thinking at all really its just the result

you might snap your wrists if you have a really awkward shot but you are not going to yourself OK this is that awkward shot coming up im going to snap my wrists a certain ammount

most of the time the wrists are never involved in the shot they are locked

with using the left hand I think it depends on the hitting arm structure

I can hit with a straight / straight or double bend and the double bend feels more like a left handed forehand than the straight straight

grip structure is really important in determining what the arm structure is

there is lots of different grip combinations that you can use but for each player i.e. murray will use the same grip every bh he hits

[julian1]

The progression specified below

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...ead.php?t=1972

I just love this little clip with Oscar Wegner...at the risk of drawing the ire of our own John Yandell. I use this exclusively in the teaching of the two hand backhand now...it seems to work just fine with students of all ages and abilities. It thoroughly examines the role of the left hand in the two hand backhand which I interpret to be virtually identical to that of a left hand forehand.

The wrist behaves as a hinge as it always does in any kind of shot...be it a golf shot, tennis shot, long shot or short shot. That being said I will never forget my dear old tennis coach Sherman Collins telling me that the professionals can definitely break some of the rules some of the time and here he made a point of the example of the wrist. Advanced players can and do use markedly different movements of the wrist other than the normal hinge in some shots and flicking a cross court passing shot may be a good example of this. I don't like the word "snapping" though when it comes to the movement of the wrist. I believe that the motion is a bit more subtle than that. Perhaps it would be suffice to say "rolling"...or in hinge jargon, a "slamming" of the door.

Does the progression above specifies:
a.stance
b.grips
c.shape of bakswing/loop?

Just to be fair/specific:
I "read" the link provided by you

Do u apply the same progression for low bouncing balls?
Say you live close to Boston and you coach a college.
Say that balls do have a bounce below the level of knees

[don_budge]

Progressive learning...Baby steps.

Does the progression above specifies:
a.stance
b.grips
c.shape of bakswing/loop?

Just to be fair/specific:
I "read" the link provided by you

Do u apply the same progression for low bouncing balls?
Say you live close to Boston and you coach a college.
Say that balls do have a bounce below the level og knees

Dr. J...The key to the making of a great conversationalist is to ask great questions. You, my friend have hit the nail on the head. What you are asking is the essence of what makes this video and others of Oscar so compelling...it is the simplicity. The baseness.

And thanks for "reading" the link...I really enjoyed writing it.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1972

In all of my education nobody ever taught me that:

1. The earth is a ball, a ball in the game...in a game where there are no rules. It spins, I spin, You spin...we spin together.

2. Life is the only game where the object of the game is to learn the rules.

Once you begin to understand these two little pearls things become just a bit clearer. In the end, one might aspire to the title..."Spin Doctor". There are doctors and there are doctors.

But julian1 here it is. Let me try to explain. What Oscar has given us here is the lowest common denominator. The LCD. By beginning his base lesson with the underhand throwing motion he is steering us to the path of least resistance. That is the path where all things are possible if we can grasp the meanings...the signs in the roots. Concepts.

The underhand throwing motion and the ensuing progressions are steering us to the essence of the Stance, the Grip and motion of the Back swing, the Forward swing and the rest of it.
The beauty of his video...and the strength of it as well is its simplicity. The rejection of the infinitesimal details. He leaves it up to us...the Spin Doctors...to complete the lesson(s). Afterall, what is a Spin Doctor? All in all, I would have to say that he is a Metaphysical Engineer. You can talk about biomechanics all that you like, but in the end you have to make the thing work. We are dealing with human beings here...by definition that is not a world of perfect.

The Back Swing...When first introduced to the concept of the underhand throwing motion (UTM) most students, particularly the young and the females, will swing their arm way to the inside and behind them as they swing their arms backwards. Here is were Dr. Spin will add to Oscar's base and instruct such a pupil to swing the arm on a line backwards in a pendulum motion (bowling motion) straight back to the wall behind them in order to prepare the arm to go straight forwards to the target. Much could be said for the action of arm in the forehand or in left arm of a right hand two hand backhand.

The Grip...Oh yes! Absolutely, the grip! When using the UTM it is a logical place to begin to educate the student in the action of the wrist, which conceivably initiates the action of the hand on the racquet and the grip. The wrist is laid back in the UTM and no effort should be made to flick it at the target...just let it unfold as the momentum dictates. Once you get the student's hand on the racquet...I feel that starting with the left hand in a conservative eastern backhand grip is the easiest place to start. Why complicate things with digital analysis of numbers and bevels? Keep it simple. Simply put the student in the proper stance when meeting the ball, put the racquet in the proper position and tell the student to naturally place their hands on the racquet. End of story. No muss no fuss.

The Stance...Most importantly! In an UTM the opposite foot is the foot that is making the step towards the target of the throwing motion. In any tennis stroke...at least in the beginning the opposite foot is the foot that is stepping towards the ball in order to transfer energy through the feet, body and arms into the ball. The most important aspects of stance are immediately discernible to even the most challenged. Footwork, weight transfer and awareness of all the body parts are illuminated.

The video is the basis. It is an introduction to a long story...an epic if the student chooses. It is not Dostoyevsky in itself but with the aid of a good Spin Doctor it may end up in that sort of class. Working these aspects of the swing in progressions seems to be a comfortable program for students of all sizes, shapes and abilities. Probably for those from the Boston area with low bouncing balls as well.

Well...I hope that I sort of answered your question. Even if I didn't I sure had a lot of fun trying. Thanks julian1! And you too, jimlosaltos!

[julian1]

Another post

Don_budge.
please read post #10 above

[julian1]

Low bounce

Don_budge,
Basically he question is like that:
a given coach has a well prepared progression for backhand.
Let say the progression specifies:
1.grip
2.shape of backswing
3.location of contact point
Which parts of progression/movement should/could be
modified in the case of low bounce?
Obviously backswing would be one potential candidate
The problem is of practiical nature
I understand that you do NOT coach outdoor in Sweden
so the problem described is NOT the issue for you

PS The end of

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/classiclessons/rich_berman/two_handed_backhand/

shows a scenario with bounce,say,of the WAIST LEVEL
It is NOT what I am trying to analyze/find a solution for