Variations of the Volley and Backhand Slice Grips

[vmiller]

John,

I hit my vollies and my backhand slices with I what I guess you can call a strong continental. The base of my index knuckle is on panel 2 like a normal continental, but the heel pad of my hand is on the top (panel 1). I guess it's a little more like a hammer grip. It's actually the grip I use for serving also, but in that case I think it's an advantage because it facilitates pronation.

On my slice backhands, I have a habit of adding some external arm rotation to my swing which I think adds power but complicates the timing of the swing and reduces consistency. This is a habit that has developed without intention and I believe it's a result of the grip described above. If I swing with a standard continental, it seems almost impossible to achieve this rotation. I looked through the stroke archives and was unable to find any pros doing what I do. They all seem to use a standard continental with a simple swing pattern. What do you think of this grip that I am using? Would you say that I'm making things more difficult for myself with this grip and should try moving to a standard continental?

I haven't fully figured out what effect this grip has on vollies, but mine are not exactly stellar. Could I be limiting my vollies with this grip also?

Thanks,
Vin

[johnyandell]

Sounds too strong. Most volleys and slices the index knuckle is at most on 2 if not the edge down and the heel pad is half on 1. That's what I'd call a true continental/ It's Mac's grip. Extermal arm rotation on the slice?? That doesn't make sense. I'd have to see some video. but if you can't match your images with any of the top players you either are breaking new ground or you need to change...

[vmiller]

OK, I'll give the 'Mac grip' a try. When you sat 'at most on 2', do you mean the the index knuckle is more towards an eastern forehand than an eastern backhand?

Extermal arm rotation on the slice?? That doesn't make sense.

My backswing basically looks like a typical slice backswing, but the difference is that I internally rotate my arm and my racket head ends up at the same height or lower than my hand. As a result, I have to externnaly rotate my arm during the forward swing to get the racquet head where it belongs to make proper contact and I figure this adds racket head speed. The rotation is almost similar to how you would hit a backhand overhead (or at least how I would).

If you're really that interested, I'll take some video and send it in. Let me know.

[vmiller]

AHA! I found someone! Ken Rosewall. He seems to do what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, I can't use frame by frame on the clip I found (on tenniscruz.com), so I can't really take a close look at it.

[lukman41985]

vmiller, I think I know what you meant by "external arm rotation". Although I think that's the wrong term, it's what you're doing and feeling that's important. Here's what I think: Basically what you are doing can be demonstrated by sticking your right arm out as if you're about to shake hands with someone. On your slice backhand, you are taking the arm and rotating the whole arm counter clockwise. This action opens the racquet face. Because you have a 'strong' continental grip, which has the face less open than a traditional continental grip, you are rotating the arm in a counterclockwise fashion to open the face. Keep in mind that any sort of arm rotation shouldn't be forced because arm rotation is difficult to time in that fashion. Arm rotation should be a natural result of swing path. The arm rotation you are using seems unnatural. If you rotate the arm too much, you will hit a very floaty slice. If you rotate the arm too little, at best you will hit a shot that is fairly flat, but most of the time, a shot that goes into the net. Instead of worrying about how much and when to rotate the arm, which would be a forced and unnatural mechanism, just change your grip over to a traditional continetal. This grip has the racquet face open naturally so you won't have to worry about timing the arm rotation. Check out this clip of Fed:

Notice Federer's traditional continental grip? It actually almost looks like a weak continental. Anyways, there's almost no arm rotation. Federer makes it look so simple. Focus on the path the racquet take. Federer goes high to low to impart backspin and left to right to impart side spin. This side spin is what makes the ball slice and the backspin is what makes the ball bite and land short.

[lukman41985]

Ohhh, you're rotating your arm clockwise then. Wierd. But yes, this is what Rosewall does. Cruz actually wrote an article comparing the slice backhands of Federer and Rosewall. Rosewall isn't a bad model. He is said to have had one of the greatest backhands ever, even though he sliced almost every shot using the arm rotation pattern you've described. Be that as it may, the rotation is still hard to time. Rosewall played in a time where the ball moved much more slowly between the racquets than it does today. Therefore, I don't know if I would advocate that sort of arm rotation move. Plus, it just seems unnatural. To me, arm rotation shouldn't be forced. You shouldn't force the arm rotation to force the racquet face into a particular orientation. John says it best in the section on Key Differenced Across the Grip Styles: Racket Face Angle in his series "Building the Modern Forehand": basically the racquet face angle should be a function of grip, not arm rotation. Arm rotation should be a result of racquet path. Any sort of unnatural or forced arm rotation could potentially hurt your arm as well--not to mention hurt your game because of the aforementioned timing issues.

[vmiller]

lukman,

Thanks for all the input! I agree that the rotation is harder to time, but I'm definitely not forcing it. It's a habit I've developed completely naturally. In fact, my slice backhand breaks down when I try to NOT do it. This is what brought me to the question of grips. When I use a truer continental, it's a lot harder to use this rotation.

I think you make a good point about the speed of todays game which may be why we don't see this type of slice backhand among current pros (at least that I am aware of), but then again, look at Roddick's forehand. With his closed backswing, he has to rotate the racquet significantly before contact during that fast swing of his.

To be honest, I've never really worked on my slice backhand that much and just started recently in an effort to keep my approach shots deep more consistently. Now that I've found the similarity with Rosewall, I wonder if what I'm doing is something I should develop or give up on.

Vin

[johnyandell]

Good discussion guys. Vin we need the video. I know I say that a lot but I feel that I waste too much previous energy trying to imagine what people are really doing--and when I see the video it's nothing like they say. Sounds like someone's serve we could mention, for example?