Coaching tools required to fix this...

[stotty]

Max

I am struggling to get Max's elbow lower. When he attempts to do it he merely ends up compressing the right side of his body...collapsing it almost. And we end up with his wrist like this when he arrives near his trophy position:

maxwristbend.jpg

I have taken the decision to get him to start from the trophy position for the time being. He does this without any problem at all. By starting in the trophy position, the elbow is below the shoulder prior to commencing the serve ... and then lines up perfectly with both shoulders as the left arm extends after the ball toss, giving a perfect straight line...slope. From here he goes straight to the ball without raising up the elbow. His serve works a treat when he starts from the trophy position. I will post some clips showing him doing this soon...

What he cannot do is incorporate...memorise... this elbow position into his full swing...he loses awareness of where his elbow is...when I make him aware he compresses his right side by dropping his right shoulder (but not the elbow)...and bends his wrist downwards...looks odd.

I will persist with the half swing until I can maybe cement the correct elbow position so he know what to feel for when we attempt the full swing again

[DougEng]

I am struggling to get Max's elbow lower. When he attempts to do it he merely ends up compressing the right side of his body...collapsing it almost. And we end up with his wrist like this when he arrives near his trophy position:

[ATTACH]476[/ATTACH]

I have taken the decision to get him to start from the trophy position for the time being. He does this without any problem at all. The elbow is well below the shoulder and lines up perfectly with both shoulders, giving a perfect straight line...slope.

What he cannot do is incorporate this elbow position into his full swing...he loses awareness of where his elbow is...when I make him aware he compresses his right side...looks odd.

I will persist with the half swing until I can maybe cement the correct elbow position so he know what to feel for when we attempt the full swing again

Try this trick, usually works for me. Pretend someone he doesn't like is behind him (behind and to the right) is teasing him so he wants to jab him with his elbow (It's a variation of an old Dennis Van der Meer trick but I'm trying to be milder with the story)...if playfully (I sometimes stand behind my students so they get the idea). When he gets into the trophy/power position, he can let the elbow jab backwards. Or you can use the butterfly swimming stroke (right hand) as a demo too. It usually works in getting 1) scapular retraction (and the elbow has to go downwards slightly, it can't go upwards...show him where you want him to elbow you), 2) torso (hip+shoulder) rotation...or the elbow cocking action.

[tennis_chiro]

Terrific response!!

Hi All, specifically in answer to Don of Tennis_chiro comments:

Sorry about confusion with definitions. Franky in HP circles I don't hear of trophy positions much anymore but since it is discussed here as a term, I used it almost interchangeably with power position and bow position. I'll also clarify launch position and biomechanics of the shoulder.

The old trophy usually refers to the tossing arm stretched upwards and the racquet behind the head. If you remember Vic Braden's story that he never saw anyone in a trophy position. Vic meant that perhaps old trophies had the elbow against the body. Frankly I've never seen any of those trophies and all the trophies I've seen had the elbow away from the body.

The first image attached is Robin Soderling. Circled on the left is the trophy position. The entire left image is referred to as the power position which Nick Saviano (former Director of USTA High Performance, now running his own academy in Sunrise FL). Incidentally, Nick thinks it's ok to have a pause in the power position but not more than 1/2 sec since the countermove of the legs (loading) loses elastic stored power. Many pros also refer to the bow position which means the "cartwheel" side-arch of the left side (see the two lines on Soderling's left side of his body facing the court). The final third (right) image is the launch position which as far as I know I first heard of when Paul Douglas (LTA) informally referred to in his classic Handbook of Tennis. You don't hear of the launch position too often but it is a critical position. In the right image, an arrow is lined through the racquet. When the butt of the racquet faces the ball as in this position (and on the forehand and backhand groundstrokes) it is referred to as the "slot". The green lines are the shoulder line (clavicle line)
and in the left and center image, the elbow is marginally below the shoulder line. In the launch position, the elbow breaks the shoulder line.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472&stc=1&d=1325761026

Max is above the shoulder line the entire time which is biomechanically unsound. Someone put a nice thread on tenniswarehouse.com:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395796

And referred to USTA. On the Sport Science Committee, Ben Kibler MD and Todd Ellenbecker DPT have considerable expertise on the shoulder. You may also want to refer to the Recovery Project which Mark Kovacs PhD was instrumental in putting out.

Back to the discussion on elbow position. After the trophy position, most players have a quick countermove where the elbow comes back and you get scapular retraction where the elbow drops several degrees below the shoulder joint. In general, most players drop the elbow slightly 3-10˚ maybe for less than 0.1 sec before going into the launch position. (WTA pros tend to be close to 10˚ and ATP players ca 0-7˚)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=473&stc=1&d=1325761026

In the second photo, we see Max and several other big servers: Federer, Roddick, Murray, Safin, Soderling. And Max is by far the highest (that's the lowest his elbow comes down). It's not a sound motion and he's likely to develop rotator cuff problems (impingement). Federer, Roddick and Safin have ca 5˚ drop on the elbow, Soderling is less (maybe 2-3˚) and Murray is probably level.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=474&stc=1&d=1325761026

For final analysis, check out Mardy Fish: you can see his trophy, bow and power position on the left and on the right is his launch position. In the middle, you can clearly see his elbow below the shoulder (clavicle) line. Goran Ivansevic also did this very steep action. They were probably 10-15˚ below.

The mistake people make is not dropping the elbow out of the backswing but rather never raising the elbow. That's a classic mistake for club players although I've seen a couple open division players (mostly women) use it. In fact, more women than men drop the elbow more probably due to weaker stabilizer muscles (I noted this with my ATC/S&C trainer while coaching a college match years ago).

If you look at Nadal, he clearly has trouble in this area. He starts his elbow too high and straight so it never gets into the upwards drive that Fish (a bid server) achieves.

In fact, right now Ben Kibler is running a study on ATP/WTA serves regarding injuries and elbow cocking is a major component missing with many WTA players. Right now we are discussing the elbow position with the shoulder line, but even more important is the countermove I mentioned earlier or cocking action where the elbow drops behind the shoulder line on the frontal plane.

Overall, ideally...my estimates is that the elbow should drop 4-5˚ below the elbow before rising into the launch position where it is typically 20˚ above the shoulder line while the racquet remains in the slot. When the hand breaks the frontal plane (dorsal or backside), the elbow naturally rises.

As for the "loop", sorry, I lost you a bit in your description. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Maybe you can clarify. Nice to have an intelligent tennis discussion!

Best,
Doug

Wow, Doug. That is a terrific response. A lot of great clarification of many things. The links are great reminders too! (I have to find a live link to the "Thrower's Ten" though!)

We are pretty much in the same place about the "Trophy position", the current one, not the one my old mentor Vic was talking about (he hired me and I ran his program with his films on my first experience in NY over 40 years ago). I really appreciate the clarification on the "launch", "Power", and "bow" positions.

I'm still not convinced that the "best" biomechanics include the elbow moving continuously up and forward absolutely although that may include a relative minor 5 degree drop to the shoulder line. I've got to look at some more video to check that out. In any case, those 5 degree below the shoulder line positions are essentially in line with the shoulder line as far as I'm concerned (although the pictures show that they are not in an absolute way).

What I'm wondering more about is whether my assertion (which can only be verified with a posterior or maybe overhead view synchronised with the lateral view you are showing) that the racket head needs to swing over not just in the coronal plane, but in the sagital plane as well. That's going to be a little confusing to everyone, so let me put it this way. When we look from the side from along the baseline as in the pictures you posted of Soderling, we can't tell whether the head of the racket has completed it's move to the right and onto the plane that is described by the three points of the racket head, the target and the ball. Imagine a narrow, vertical alley that includes the contact point and the target. My assertion is you can not get maximum power unless you can get the racket head into that alleyway as early as possible and preferably at the bottom of the "launch position"; that is, in your terms, the butt of the racket (imagine it as a flashlight) points not only at the ball, but also into this plane or alleyway that I am talking about that includes the target. Otherwise, you are generating power away from the target.

The other point I would make is that all this information is very good for instructors to understand and recognize, but way too much for the student. We need simple terms and descriptions to use for the student. A good way to understand the limits of the lift of the elbow in achieving a good "trophy" or "launch" position is that the student should not be able to touch there head with their hand in a mock motion without the racket until they start the upward motion of the swing. And at that point the swing is moving the hand away from the head so they still would not be able to touch their head. If the hand gets so close to the head that the player could literally touch his own head (as Max could), then he is going to feel that inappropriate extra loop. The loop a server needs to feel is the one at the bottom of the transition from "trophy" to "launch" position as he gets the racket moving on what I call the "power line".

That's all for now. This has been an excellent discussion for me. Very enlightening.

don

[stotty]

Interesting week

I have been trying to resolve Max's high elbow this week, trying to come up with ways to fix it. I have tried figure 8's, weighted rackets and all the other suggestions from people contributing to the thread - no luck.

As I explained before, I don't see this kid enough - so I've decided to put my own time into the project and work with him for 30 minutes everyday until I can install something worthwhile and set him up for the future.

I'll go thru my efforts in 3 stages.

1. I start him in the trophy position and get him to hit serves from there. Great stuff, no problem, he can hit with power and precision. The elbow is below the shoulder line and things look orthodox. When we try the full swing, though, he goes straight back into what he did before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdu4a8j8IoQ

2. For the next stage, I start him in a mid backswing position. This is the point I want him to break at the elbow to achieve a more orthodox serve, where hopefully the elbow will stay well below the shoulder line. We enjoyed reasonable success and it represents a breakthrough to some degree. This trick worked even better when I rested the handle of my racket on his bicep to prevent his arm rising up. This encouraged him to concentrate on his elbow joint and to break into the throwing action. I had no tripod so you are unable to see how well this worked...shame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsGN-qaklo0&feature=youtu.be

3. We try the full swing. It's better - but funny things happen as a result. He bends his wrist and lays his right shoulder back in a way he didn't before. We get more arching, too. The rear clip shows this best.

http://youtu.be/SqYNOO8-oyA

http://youtu.be/9bhU3D4aZs0

Overcoming this problem is a real challenge for student and coach. Comments and suggestions are most welcome

[don_budge]

Set up and backswing...

If he is not properly set up he cannot possibly backswing properly without compensating motions. I am sorry that I do not have the time presently to spell it out...briefly it is as follows below.

Check out llll's post with Gonzales...in his backswing his arm does not change position one tiny little iota from his setup position to the top of his backswing where the racquet freely falls behind his back.

That funny business with the wrist and elbow positions that you are so concerned about are both attributable to a poor set up which does not allow his arm to swing freely from his shoulder without some rather gymnastic compensating moves.

The solution to this boy's problem is a bit more complex than G's because G had some rather positive aspects to his motions as I remember. But Max's motion is very bad at the start yet he manages to deliver the racquet fairly effectively. That being said he needs to develop a nice big round backswing or he is doomed to a life of trying to find the correct combination of compensating moves to get himself into the position that one simple Gonzalezesque backswing motion can accomplish. Max's footwork, therefore his weight transfer, is pretty bad as well...in all of your video he never takes a step into the court with his right foot. I am not sure why that is.

[stotty]

If he is not properly set up he cannot possibly backswing properly without compensating motions. I am sorry that I do not have the time presently to spell it out...briefly it is as follows below.

Check out llll's post with Gonzales...in his backswing his arm does not change position one tiny little iota from his setup position to the top of his backswing where the racquet freely falls behind his back.

That funny business with the wrist and elbow positions that you are so concerned about are both attributable to a poor set up which does not allow his arm to swing freely from his shoulder without some rather gymnastic compensating moves.

The solution to this boy's problem is a bit more complex than G's because G had some rather positive aspects to his motions as I remember. But Max's motion is very bad at the start yet he manages to deliver the racquet fairly effectively. That being said he needs to develop a nice big round backswing or he is doomed to a life of trying to find the correct combination of compensating moves to get himself into the position that one simple Gonzalezesque backswing motion can accomplish. Max's footwork, therefore his weight transfer, is pretty bad as well...in all of your video he never takes a step into the court with his right foot. I am not sure why that is.

Thanks for your input, DB. I am short on time to explain my methods also, but will do when I get some time...but in brief.

As you can imagine, I have spent time experimenting with various swings and set ups. I realize his weight transfer is poor and that he doesn't step in with his right foot, and that he sits the ball in his palm and not toward the edge of his fingers, etc.,etc.

Whatever we try we end up with the elbow going way up above the shoulder line before bending. Encouraging a bigger swing makes the problem even worse. Encouraging a gravity drop initiated backswing also increases the problem. Altering the stance makes no odds either, though I realise it has to be wider.

This is why I have concentrated purely on getting him to concentrate on his elbow joint and to bend it earlier in the backswing.

It's a conundrum, though, because I fix one part and the problem shifts to another part of the swing...which screams out the problem is at the start of the chain. But when I try all the "G things" they aren't working with Max.

I quickly checked Gonzales (at 1:20). Max's racket arm changes very little until he gets too high. Gonzales gets to the shoulder line then the elbow breaks and lowers...

I'll post again soon...thanks again for your valued input, DB

[DougEng]

Serve...

Thanks for your input, DB. I am short on time to explain my methods also, but will do when I get some time...but in brief.

As you can imagine, I have spent time experimenting with various swings and set ups. I realize his weight transfer is poor and that he doesn't step in with his right foot, and that he sits the ball in his palm and not toward the edge of his fingers, etc.,etc.

Whatever we try we end up with the elbow going way up above the shoulder line before bending. Encouraging a bigger swing makes the problem even worse. Encouraging a gravity drop initiated backswing also increases the problem. Altering the stance makes no odds either, though I realise it has to be wider.

This is why I have concentrated purely on getting him to concentrate on his elbow joint and to bend it earlier in the backswing.

It's a conundrum, though, because I fix one part and the problem shifts to another part of the swing...which screams out the problem is at the start of the chain. But when I try all the "G things" they aren't working with Max.

I quickly checked Gonzales (at 1:20). Max's racket arm changes very little until he gets too high. Gonzales gets to the shoulder line then the elbow breaks and lowers...

I'll post again soon...thanks again for your valued input, DB

Hi Don,

Serve looks much better!! The elbow is lower and more sound. So you are making great progress. Yes, the rear video shows hypermobility in the shoulder (anterior inferior structures). Have you seen him do stretches and see what he's capable of? He may be naturally quite flexible in that direction. However, most likely it isn't good...but I'm not a medical! Young people often have hypermobility in the shoulder in that direction and maybe that's what we are seeing. So he might need some strengthening. But check with medical doctors...and ask him about any history of shoulder injuries.

Also, I made this revised version of a rare overhead video (Braden). Chris Evert and Vijay Amitraj. Chris elbow stays within the coronal plane but Vijay breaks it slightly (ca 3-4˚). More noticeably is the separation angle (hips to shoulders) which is negligible for Chris but ca 30-35˚ for Vijay (at 1.700 sec you can see). On the follow-through, you can also see more looseness in the wrist (flexion) for Vijay whereas Chris goes out with the racquet.

Chris is literary in the shoulder line but Vijay actually appears to supination slightly out of the shoulder wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_5mnWwY24

[stotty]

Hi Don,

Serve looks much better!! The elbow is lower and more sound. So you are making great progress. Yes, the rear video shows hypermobility in the shoulder (anterior inferior structures). Have you seen him do stretches and see what he's capable of? He may be naturally quite flexible in that direction. However, most likely it isn't good...but I'm not a medical! Young people often have hypermobility in the shoulder in that direction and maybe that's what we are seeing. So he might need some strengthening. But check with medical doctors...and ask him about any history of shoulder injuries.

Also, I made this revised version of a rare overhead video (Braden). Chris Evert and Vijay Amitraj. Chris elbow stays within the coronal plane but Vijay breaks it slightly (ca 3-4˚). More noticeably is the separation angle (hips to shoulders) which is negligible for Chris but ca 30-35˚ for Vijay (at 1.700 sec you can see). On the follow-through, you can also see more looseness in the wrist (flexion) for Vijay whereas Chris goes out with the racquet.

Chris is literary in the shoulder line but Vijay actually appears to supination slightly out of the shoulder wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_5mnWwY24

That's a really interesting video clip. You rarely see the serve from that viewpoint.

I was looking in the stroke archive and noticed that Murray's serving arm goes slightly above the shoulder line before dropping down into the a power position. It doesn't drop down much - his power position is not as steep as most players on the tour. So even at tour level you can see the odd server raising his elbow above the shoulder line.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andy_murray/am_serve/am_1st_serve/am_1st_serve.html?AM1stSDeuceSide3.mov

I've watched Murray so many times but never noticed that before...

[DougEng]

Murray's Serve

That's a really interesting video clip. You rarely see the serve from that viewpoint.

I was looking in the stroke archive and noticed that Murray's serving arm goes slightly above the shoulder line before dropping down into the a power position. It doesn't drop down much - his power position is not as steep as most players on the tour. So even at tour level you can see the odd server raising his elbow above the shoulder line.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andy_murray/am_serve/am_1st_serve/am_1st_serve.html?AM1stSDeuceSide3.mov

I've watched Murray so many times but never noticed that before...

Yes, it's very level compared to most players. WTA players tend to drop the elbow more into a steep power position. However, that's not necessarily good since they don't get sufficient rotation, separation angle or cocking.

Below are URLs of interesting comparison of elbow and cocking mechanics with baseball pitchers...the first discusses the concept of a slot (forearm position), elbow position relative to the shoulder line. The second discusses cocking and female and male throwing mechanics:

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/PitchingMechanics101/Essays/PitchingMechanics.html

http://www.sportsci.com/topics2/presentations/throwing_doc_presentation_isbs99/mthrow.htm

[stotty]

Is it me or is Tomic's elbow way above the shoulder line...?

John, do you have a clip of Tomic serving...side view?

[julian1]

Flexibility training

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Fulltext/2011/08000/A_Performance_Evaluation_of_the_Tennis_Serve_.5.aspx

[DougEng]

Tomic

Is it me or is Tomic's elbow way above the shoulder line...?

John, do you have a clip of Tomic serving...side view?

Stotty,

I have Tomic side view on the serve from USTA archives. But it's also on youtube. You are correct; he doesn't drop the elbow but raises it above the clavicle the entire time. It's also an abbreviated motion. Personally, I'm not a fan of his motion. Unlike Andy Roddick who has incredible flexibility and a powerful leg drive, Tomic apparently lacks both. Still, he makes up a bit for his serve.

I have not really followed him but as you brought it up, given he's 6'5" and can't really deliver a powerful serve. By contrast Taylor Dent at 17-18 could serve close to 130 already. So did Andy Roddick. Mechanically, like Nadal, he needs some work. And he has some time still.

Against Federer, he had 0 aces, average 1st serve was 14 kmh less than Federer. And more important, his average second serve was 18 kmh less or only 137 kmh or 85 mph...that's weak. In his matches vs Verdasco, Querrey, Dolgopolov and Federer, Tomic fastest serve was 198 kmh (or 123 mph), never broke 200. Twenty years ago, that's great...but today, it's probably the weakest serve among the top fifty players...think about who else doesn't serve well.
And only against Federer did he serve at over 70% first serves in.

As great as a run it was, I'm not sure if he can really get to top 5 without a great serve...that's hard to do (and he's 6'5"). He will get a bit more aggressive and play inside the baseline and net more...but again, without a great serve, that's hard to do.

[stotty]

Stotty,

I have Tomic side view on the serve from USTA archives. But it's also on youtube. You are correct; he doesn't drop the elbow but raises it above the clavicle the entire time. It's also an abbreviated motion. Personally, I'm not a fan of his motion. Unlike Andy Roddick who has incredible flexibility and a powerful leg drive, Tomic apparently lacks both. Still, he makes up a bit for his serve.

I have not really followed him but as you brought it up, given he's 6'5" and can't really deliver a powerful serve. By contrast Taylor Dent at 17-18 could serve close to 130 already. So did Andy Roddick. Mechanically, like Nadal, he needs some work. And he has some time still.

Against Federer, he had 0 aces, average 1st serve was 14 kmh less than Federer. And more important, his average second serve was 18 kmh less or only 137 kmh or 85 mph...that's weak. In his matches vs Verdasco, Querrey, Dolgopolov and Federer, Tomic fastest serve was 198 kmh (or 123 mph), never broke 200. Twenty years ago, that's great...but today, it's probably the weakest serve among the top fifty players...think about who else doesn't serve well.
And only against Federer did he serve at over 70% first serves in.

As great as a run it was, I'm not sure if he can really get to top 5 without a great serve...that's hard to do (and he's 6'5"). He will get a bit more aggressive and play inside the baseline and net more...but again, without a great serve, that's hard to do.

I agree with you entirely.

The problem for coaches is that there's always a top player out there who is doing what many of us would term in coaching as a technical "no-no"

"Well, he's in the top 50 and he's doing it" is what students are likely to say. It's annoying because most players cannot get away with what, say, Tomic is doing.

Such is the coaches lot....

[DougEng]

I agree with you entirely.

The problem for coaches is that there's always a top player out there who is doing what many of us would term in coaching as a technical "no-no"

"Well, he's in the top 50 and he's doing it" is what students are likely to say. It's annoying because most players cannot get away with what, say, Tomic is doing.

Such is the coaches lot....

Yes. And people forget, he's the exception, not the rule. Or the winner in the lottery (which makes everyone think they have a chance). Going by the rules may give players much better chances to do well, win or even make the tour. I know one player on the tour (very low) who was poorly coached technically with major glaring errors seen only at the 4.0/4.5 level...but athleticism and intelligence makes up for those weaknesses, to some degree. Tomic's athleticism, groundstrokes, and feel for the game keeps him ahead of the curve. He may go the route of Gasquet (great backhand), but if you don't have a serve or return or forehand, it's hard to crack the top 5 (backhands almost never make Grand Slam champions).

[DougEng]

Good Article...will be at PTR Intl Symposium

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Ful..._Serve_.5.aspx

Hi Julian,

Hope you are well. That's a great article. Mark, Todd (and I) are good friends. We were together in Atlanta this past weekend in meetings. Mark is presenting the paper at the PTR Intl Symposium. Mark also has a great DVD out (USPTA OnCourt) as seen on The Tennis Channel for strengthening the serve. I strongly recommend buying or watching it.

Best,
Doug