Coaching tools required to fix this...

[stotty]

Ok, I've come across this problem many times. The server has a "high elbow" position. He raises the arm up too high before breaking into his throwing action. Usually with this problem I use a slim bamboo stick to tap the server's bicep to let him know that is arm is raising too high. It works well with most students...but not this one. Just wondered if any coaches out there have alternative ways of dealing with this type of problem?

I realize it's not the only problem this server has, but I would like to focus on this particularly one.

http://youtu.be/jMxuZXwFbv4

max.jpg

[don_budge]

Once again...set up and backswing

Coaching tools...you got 'em.

Once again, here we have what is basically a very, very nice service motion...the set up is quirky, though. Look at that big circle behind his back and the nice big swing coming out of it. This guy is two thirds of the way home. He's missing the matching circle in front of him...the big circular backswing. Get him set up correctly...get him to swing the club, oops I mean racquet back, into position properly and boom. You are off to the races...again. Where do you come up with these guys? How old is this one? You're going to be famous for the service motions coming out of your students.

The remedy to most service maladies is the set up and backswing...these are the initial keys. Once you have these two things in place the body will more or less do what it is set up to do naturally...if you can get the toss at the point where it should be, when it should be there. I don't care for the footwork though...extra motion means more places in the motion that can go wrong.

This guy can just about be the model...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=k83mXH8l3Gg&feature=endscreen

[tennis_chiro]

Swing a weighted racket

Stotty,
You can try having him swing a weighted racket (1/2 to 1 lb max in the center of the head) through the figure 8 motion. Even if he does it with his abbreviated backswing, the additional load will force him to be more efficient with the way he positions his elbow in the trophy position. Once he feels the correct position (not so high), he has a chance to try to incorporate that into his regular motion.

If he didn't have the abbreviated backswing, I would have him swing the racket back and forth to the trophy position synchronized with me (and with his normal weight transfer pattern), going faster and faster. The body naturally finds the correct position when you do this. With the abbreviated backswing, I'm not sure that will work, but you could try it.

But like d_b said, he's off to a pretty good start.

don

[stotty]

I don't see this kid (Max) as regularly as G (6 lessons in last 4 months), so making progress is that bit more difficult.

Max can do a full classic swing but has the reverse problem to G in that...whereas G would drag that racket thru the early part of the backswing...this guy races thru too quickly...and doesn't have the ability to let gravity do it's job on the racket head...he has trouble controlling that early part of the backswing and almost chucks the racketthru it. Consequently, we end up with the racket arm going up higher than we would like for the trophy position.

Yes, the start is quirky, and I feel the weight transfer limited because of it. He is a Roddick fan as you can see by the way he has tried to copy Andy's set up.

The clip I posted ain't great and gives too limited a view. I will upload another clip of two soon.

[stotty]

Deeper backswing

Here is a slomo clip. Max is attempting a deeper backswing in this one. This was taken at the end of the summer.

http://youtu.be/LilSLpRRUzc

[DougEng]

Hi,

Interesting that his idol is Roddick since he doesn't have an abbreviated backswing...it's almost a full backswing without the racquet pointing straight back so I used to call this the 80% backswing. In fact, I prefer (instead of teaching the full backswing) it since most players who use it don't let their palm open up early in the backswing trophy or power position. It helps keep the racquet in line better than the traditional full pendulum backswing. Notice his wrist is quite relaxed so he has good potential.

I think there was a suggestion to do a weighted racquet with a figure 8 but I think part of his problem is exactly that. Some players think they are supposed to move the hand in a loop. The larger the loop becomes (behind the head), the less likely the racquet and elbow will drop properly into the power position and slot (in the launch position). His elbow never goes below the shoulder line which is a major mechanical error depriving him of power and promoting possible shoulder impingement.

If using a weighted racquet, put the weight around the grip. If around the head, I find it changes the racquet path. That is, the former creates more weight in the racquet but keeps it slightly head light so he can still accelerate. The latter might inhibit his swing speed with a more head-heavy racquet (translating to potentially slower racquet head speed). He doesn't want to change the racquet path but instead his hand and elbow position. So weighing him down slightly could help keep the elbow down. Putting weight in the head will bring his racquet down, not just his elbow and it will slow down the swing and make it more awkward. (I know, I've tried it and as tempting as it seems, it does quite work).

He might want to focus on 1) the bow position, pointing the hip towards the net
since that will lower his racquet, 2) using a Todd Martin backswing in practice to train his elbow to start lower and become more familiar with a more effective trophy/power position. He shouldn't think loop or figure 8...that concept will make him swing his arm and elbow high around behind him.

Just my opinion.

BTW, use a thin bamboo stick...lol, sounds like caning, just kidding. I often just touch them in the backswing with my hand or racquet (almost the same concept). Or find a way to block the backswing partially behind the head.

Best,
Doug

[tennis_chiro]

We need to define some terms!

Hi,

Interesting that his idol is Roddick since he doesn't have an abbreviated backswing...it's almost a full backswing without the racquet pointing straight back so I used to call this the 80% backswing. In fact, I prefer (instead of teaching the full backswing) it since most players who use it don't let their palm open up early in the backswing trophy or power position. It helps keep the racquet in line better than the traditional full pendulum backswing. Notice his wrist is quite relaxed so he has good potential.

I think there was a suggestion to do a weighted racquet with a figure 8 but I think part of his problem is exactly that. Some players think they are supposed to move the hand in a loop. The larger the loop becomes (behind the head), the less likely the racquet and elbow will drop properly into the power position and slot (in the launch position). His elbow never goes below the shoulder line which is a major mechanical error depriving him of power and promoting possible shoulder impingement.

If using a weighted racquet, put the weight around the grip. If around the head, I find it changes the racquet path. That is, the former creates more weight in the racquet but keeps it slightly head light so he can still accelerate. The latter might inhibit his swing speed with a more head-heavy racquet (translating to potentially slower racquet head speed). He doesn't want to change the racquet path but instead his hand and elbow position. So weighing him down slightly could help keep the elbow down. Putting weight in the head will bring his racquet down, not just his elbow and it will slow down the swing and make it more awkward. (I know, I've tried it and as tempting as it seems, it does quite work).

He might want to focus on 1) the bow position, pointing the hip towards the net
since that will lower his racquet, 2) using a Todd Martin backswing in practice to train his elbow to start lower and become more familiar with a more effective trophy/power position. He shouldn't think loop or figure 8...that concept will make him swing his arm and elbow high around behind him.

Just my opinion.

BTW, use a thin bamboo stick...lol, sounds like caning, just kidding. I often just touch them in the backswing with my hand or racquet (almost the same concept). Or find a way to block the backswing partially behind the head.

Best,
Doug

I think we need to define terms here. We have a pretty good understanding of what we(those of us engaged here on this forum) mean by a "trophy position". We have not quite as good, but a fair consensus of what we mean by "the power position". I consider that the low point in the swing of the racket head behind the body and on line to the ball and the target just before it begins to accelerate up to the ball; the longer the distance up to the ball the better. I'm not so sure about the launch position as differentiated from the power position or the bow position as differentiated from the trophy position at the bottom of the knee bend. Doug, please help me out a little bit here.

But those are almost semantic differences compared to the description of the "loop". The loop I am concerned about is the non-existent one that I can nevertheless feel as the racket makes the second half and lower part of its movement from the "trophy position" behind the back to the "power position". To accomplish this, the racket has to swing over from left to right (right-handers) and onto the line up to the ball and on to the target. For the moment, let's call that line the "power line". If you swing the racket into the static "backstretch" position and then turn the body fully forward, you will not get the racket head over to the "power line". Your effective power line would be going off to your right of your target. In fact, it is crucial that the elbow stays relatively quiet as the hips and shoulders start turning the body forward before the racket head drops to the bottom of the "backscratch", effectively using the downward momentum of the racket head drop at this point to swing the racket head over to the correct "power line". This swing of the racket head over to the correct "power line" is the "loop" that I am most concerned about.

(I blew the audio on this video, but you can see the difference between the way the racket moves to the right when there is a continuous motion and the way it gets stuck too far to the left when you stop in a "backscratch".)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb70sir9BZw&feature=plcp&context=C3db16e0UDOEgsToPDskJaK-Q5LjkozFTGVwpk3eAo

Yes, if you swing the elbow up too high, you create an artificial loop behind the head that doesn't do you any good. But I don't want my student feeling that loop. At that point they should be simply letting the racket head drop from the trophy position as the elbow stays relatively quiet. It's at this point that the weighted racket head assists the student in feeling the bottom loop I am trying to focus on. If they don't do it correctly, the weighted racket head gets swung wildly to the side. This is only meant as a brief drill. It is not meant to be used actually hitting the ball. You could do the same thing with a weight at the hand, but for the same effect, you would have to use a much heavier weight.

But what I really don't understand is what Doug is saying about the elbow getting below the shoulder line. I tried to check if I just had it wrong, but I have always felt it was a fundamental of good service action that we want the elbow to move continuously up and forward once it starts going up in the backswing. You can certainly find exceptions to that rule, but look in the high speed archives at Sampras, Federer, Roddick (once he gets to the trophy position) and even at the clip of Gonzales posted here yesterday (particularly at 1:20 in the clip) and you will see that once the elbow gets up to the trophy position, the humerus stays right in line with the shoulders (clavicles and spines of the scapulae) and moves continuously up and forward. So I don't understand Doug's statement: "His elbow never goes below the shoulder line which is a major mechanical error depriving him of power and promoting possible shoulder impingement." These great servers I am citing never drop the elbow below the shoulder line.

The idea behind using the weighted racket in a figure 8 for this particular student, is strictly related to getting him into a better position on his backswing. It's tough to get the racket up and the elbow into the less effective position he has adopted when you use a weighted racket, whether it is weighted at the head or the handle. The leverage of having a lighter weight at the head is preferable in my opinion. But there is very little wrong with the basic action that this player uses in the loop I am most concerned with, the one that gets him into the "power position". It's just that he is depriving himself of significant additional and effortless power with the extra loop that he is creating right behind his head as he raises his elbow in the backswing above the "shoulder line". He has to correct that initial move, but not by dropping the elbow back down. Once the elbow goes up, I don't think he should bring it back down again. He'll have less power, but I think having a "floppy elbow" is a bigger problem.

Federer:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/roger_federer/v2/roger_federer_high_speed_v2.html?1stSDeuceSide-0042709-0001.mov

Roddick(remember that he double clutches, so watch from the point he actually achieve a full trophy position):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/andy_roddick/andy_roddick_v2/andy_roddick_v2.html?AR1stSDeuceSide-0273003-0001.mov

Murray(Andy brings it up a little too high and drops it just a bit, but not below the shoulder line):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/HD/Andy_Murray/Serve_Returns_Net/Serve_Returns_Net.html?andy_murray_1stS_Deuce_side1.mov

Sampras(There are better views, but this is in our High Speed archives):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?PeteSampras1stServe.mov

and the clip that was posted yesterday of
Gonzales(particularly look at the serve at 1:23 in):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8oaZ-49eebo&feature=endscreen

and here is the exception to the rule
Djokovic

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/pro_men/HD/Novak_Djokovic/Serve_Returns_Net/Serve_Returns_Net.html?djokovic_1stS_Deuce_side1.mov

don

[stotty]

Elbow position

I think I totally understand Doug when he says the "elbow never gets below the shoulder line"...and it doesn't. I think interpretation of what someone is saying by through text is the problem here. Sometimes we don't read something as the author intended.

However good a writer one is, it is awfully difficult to convey complex actions that take place in a serve thru descriptive writing.

The crux of the problem, for me at least, is the elbow position. I think the loop will take care of itself if I can cure that. Normally I can do it easily thru getting the student to repeatedly start from the trophy position... so he gets used to the feel of going to the ball from the trophy position. Then I get him to try a full swing to see if his elbow can slot into the correct position. With help from me tapping his bicep with a thin bamboo stick, over time, this approach normally works. This student is a bit extreme...and my standard approach doesn't work. Hence the thread for help.

Believe me, I try everything. And I will try all manner of weighted rackets if just one might achieve the goal. All coaching tools are hopefully temporary measures to achieving a goal...some really odd tools can achieve great results...I have many effective tools for achieving stuff, which may even be unique...or not...who knows what other coaches do around the world.

The best way to explain complex technical details are thru bullet point sentences, highlighted images, and example videos. The saying "a picture paints a thousand words" is probably an understatement...ten thousand would be more like it.

I am deeply grateful for the help I get from other coaches on Tennisplayer...touched actually...some of the threads turn out to be fascinating journeys ... great for picking up knowledge.

[chuck62]

Go all in on the Roddick motion

Stotty, I noticed that Roddick never points the racket anywhere past parallel to the ground on the backswing in the clip Don attached. By contrast your guy points it at the ground. So he is trying to do the abbreviated Roddick motion without the abbreviated backswing. Consequently he is having to force a quick forward swing which lacks the natural figure eight racket path (which is what I see when I trace the tip of Feds racket in the clip Don attached). Maybe if your guy wants to use the Roddick motion which a few players have been able to duplicate with good results (notably Monfils), he should go all in and try to duplicate the entire motion not just the trophy position.

[stotty]

Stotty, I noticed that Roddick never points the racket anywhere past parallel to the ground on the backswing in the clip Don attached. By contrast your guy points it at the ground. So he is trying to do the abbreviated Roddick motion without the abbreviated backswing. Consequently he is having to force a quick forward swing which lacks the natural figure eight racket path (which is what I see when I trace the tip of Feds racket in the clip Don attached). Maybe if your guy wants to use the Roddick motion which a few players have been able to duplicate with good results (notably Monfils), he should go all in and try to duplicate the entire motion not just the trophy position.

Yes, Chuck, I see exactly what you mean, and it explains why sometimes he hits the ball off his nose and not fully extended!

But I'm not sure an abbreviated serve of any kind suits this boy. It takes exceptional split second timing to do a Roddick...few can do it. Longer swings allow for micro adjustments in timing and suits most players better.

I intend to try and encourage a fuller, deeper swing with this kid and see how it pans out.

[bottle]

Re # 7

This post contains the best I've read, albeit the only, explanation of how the racket ought to go sideways down behind the back. It ought to go sideways as it's falling due to body rotation occurring as part of a continuous motion.

I've thought about this a lot, asked questions, not ever received such a clear suggestion.

Lots of pros will tell you to get racket out to the right so that racket lines up with edge of body but won't indicate HOW BEST to do this.

If there are other answers to the question, I hope some day to hear them, too.

[DougEng]

Definitions, Mechanics

Hi All, specifically in answer to Don of Tennis_chiro comments:

Sorry about confusion with definitions. Franky in HP circles I don't hear of trophy positions much anymore but since it is discussed here as a term, I used it almost interchangeably with power position and bow position. I'll also clarify launch position and biomechanics of the shoulder.

The old trophy usually refers to the tossing arm stretched upwards and the racquet behind the head. If you remember Vic Braden's story that he never saw anyone in a trophy position. Vic meant that perhaps old trophies had the elbow against the body. Frankly I've never seen any of those trophies and all the trophies I've seen had the elbow away from the body.

The first image attached is Robin Soderling. Circled on the left is the trophy position. The entire left image is referred to as the power position which Nick Saviano (former Director of USTA High Performance, now running his own academy in Sunrise FL). Incidentally, Nick thinks it's ok to have a pause in the power position but not more than 1/2 sec since the countermove of the legs (loading) loses elastic stored power. Many pros also refer to the bow position which means the "cartwheel" side-arch of the left side (see the two lines on Soderling's left side of his body facing the court). The final third (right) image is the launch position which as far as I know I first heard of when Paul Douglas (LTA) informally referred to in his classic Handbook of Tennis. You don't hear of the launch position too often but it is a critical position. In the right image, an arrow is lined through the racquet. When the butt of the racquet faces the ball as in this position (and on the forehand and backhand groundstrokes) it is referred to as the "slot". The green lines are the shoulder line (clavicle line)
and in the left and center image, the elbow is marginally below the shoulder line. In the launch position, the elbow breaks the shoulder line.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=472&stc=1&d=1325761026

Max is above the shoulder line the entire time which is biomechanically unsound. Someone put a nice thread on tenniswarehouse.com:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395796

And referred to USTA. On the Sport Science Committee, Ben Kibler MD and Todd Ellenbecker DPT have considerable expertise on the shoulder. You may also want to refer to the Recovery Project which Mark Kovacs PhD was instrumental in putting out.

Back to the discussion on elbow position. After the trophy position, most players have a quick countermove where the elbow comes back and you get scapular retraction where the elbow drops several degrees below the shoulder joint. In general, most players drop the elbow slightly 3-10˚ maybe for less than 0.1 sec before going into the launch position. (WTA pros tend to be close to 10˚ and ATP players ca 0-7˚)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=473&stc=1&d=1325761026

In the second photo, we see Max and several other big servers: Federer, Roddick, Murray, Safin, Soderling. And Max is by far the highest (that's the lowest his elbow comes down). It's not a sound motion and he's likely to develop rotator cuff problems (impingement). Federer, Roddick and Safin have ca 5˚ drop on the elbow, Soderling is less (maybe 2-3˚) and Murray is probably level.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=474&stc=1&d=1325761026

For final analysis, check out Mardy Fish: you can see his trophy, bow and power position on the left and on the right is his launch position. In the middle, you can clearly see his elbow below the shoulder (clavicle) line. Goran Ivansevic also did this very steep action. They were probably 10-15˚ below.

The mistake people make is not dropping the elbow out of the backswing but rather never raising the elbow. That's a classic mistake for club players although I've seen a couple open division players (mostly women) use it. In fact, more women than men drop the elbow more probably due to weaker stabilizer muscles (I noted this with my ATC/S&C trainer while coaching a college match years ago).

If you look at Nadal, he clearly has trouble in this area. He starts his elbow too high and straight so it never gets into the upwards drive that Fish (a bid server) achieves.

In fact, right now Ben Kibler is running a study on ATP/WTA serves regarding injuries and elbow cocking is a major component missing with many WTA players. Right now we are discussing the elbow position with the shoulder line, but even more important is the countermove I mentioned earlier or cocking action where the elbow drops behind the shoulder line on the frontal plane.

Overall, ideally...my estimates is that the elbow should drop 4-5˚ below the elbow before rising into the launch position where it is typically 20˚ above the shoulder line while the racquet remains in the slot. When the hand breaks the frontal plane (dorsal or backside), the elbow naturally rises.

As for the "loop", sorry, I lost you a bit in your description. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Maybe you can clarify. Nice to have an intelligent tennis discussion!

Best,
Doug

[DougEng]

Better Photo of Fish

Mardy! Sorry, I didn't realize the photo was too small. (I took this series one at the US Open).

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=475&stc=1&d=1325761523

[DougEng]

Tricks for serving

This post contains the best I've read, albeit the only, explanation of how the racket ought to go sideways down behind the back. It ought to go sideways as it's falling due to body rotation occurring as part of a continuous motion.

I've thought about this a lot, asked questions, not ever received such a clear suggestion.

Lots of pros will tell you to get racket out to the right so that racket lines up with edge of body but won't indicate HOW BEST to do this.

If there are other answers to the question, I hope some day to hear them, too.

Bottle,
Yes, I have quite a few but some are hard to explain. By far, most important is relaxation and realization the body has to lead upwards and create a pre-stretch. A similar pre-stretch lag occurs with the forehand. Most people try to tense up and if overdone, they will use an arm motion not a relaxed body motion. I agree with the general consensus is in order: 1) get a decent rhythm first, 2) grip...almost simultaneously with rhythm, 3) cartwheel, upwards drive, 4) cocking and bow (tends to be most advanced. A 8 year old can get a good rhythm, by 9-10 years old the grip should be close to continental, at 12, a cartwheel (Core strength), and 13-14 the cocking and bow (final stages for power). Of course, the ages are a blueprint (which may vary) for a good tournament player. The launch position gets more dramatic with each process. Finally, the most advanced serves tend to have some supination in addition to pronation.

And finally, there is actually a myth about pronation. The movement we often call pronation is a combination of pronation, elbow extension, internal shoulder rotation, ulnar deviation, wrist flexion. There is also initial radial deviation and as mentioned, supination in the biggest serves. The supination in effect allows the racquet to go upwards and farther away over the right side of the body (e.g, adding 10% more movement and thus racquet head speed). The entire stretching movement to contact is a synergistic combination (kinetic chain) and is more correctly called long axial rotation, not pronation.

So that was a 7 course-meal if my comments were a dinner.

Best,
Doug

[bottle]

urp. And thanks.