The Modern Two-Handed Backhand: Two Paths to Power

[johnyandell]

Share your thought's on Doug Eng's article "The Modern Two-Handed Backhand: Two Paths to Power".

[tennis_chiro]

Great comparison

Share your thought's on Doug Eng's article "The Modern Two-Handed Backhand: Two Paths to Power".

I thought this was a really great article. It goes to the root of the problems we face trying to teach juniors developing effective two-handed backhands while dealing with the mixture of grips and the habits they have unknowingly developed as they started out.

But I do have a couple of points:

I would like to see a deeper statistical analysis of a greater number of players to see how well these classifications hold up. There are no double-blind studies here, but it would be nice to try and take this beyond the almost anecdotal nature of naming a few players who fit the classifications. It may be that Doug has already done this, but I couldn't tell from the article.

When I look at the clip of Nadal used to demonstrate the "u" backswing, I see more of what I call a "J" stroke: take the racket head back at the same level as the ready position, pointed up at about 45 degrees, and then make the forward swing with the forward "J" stroke. To me, the "U" backswing is exemplified by Michael Chang and Rafa's backhand is still actually a loop swing: he drops the racket head below the ball before starting the forward motion, although it is certainly more compact than the "C" swings Doug cites in the article.

The other question I would like to see investigated is the relationship of injuries, particularly wrist injuries, associated with the different stroke structures and grip combinations. I think consideration has to be given to biomechanical advantages of the different grips and distribution of stress through two hands/wrists/arms as opposed to one that has to, perhaps, hyper-extend to accomodate the particular structure (particularly weaker forehand grip with bottom hand). While the continental grip described may lead to greater leverage because of a little longer lever arm, the biomechanical advantage of that position far outweighs the additional stress that may be created and enables the right side to contribute much more effectively to the workload.

Definitely looking forward to the second article.

don

[johnyandell]

That injury study would be interesting...if probably impossible to pull off.
It's complex no, our sport?

Doug did have a chart showing who he studied and I dumbed it down in the edit. Maybe he'll talk about that here.

[julian1]

Don,two very loosely related publication

I thought this was a really great article. It goes to the root of the problems we face trying to teach juniors developing effective two-handed backhands while dealing with the mixture of grips and the habits they have unknowingly developed as they started out.

But I do have a couple of points:

I would like to see a deeper statistical analysis of a greater number of players to see how well these classifications hold up. There are no double-blind studies here, but it would be nice to try and take this beyond the almost anecdotal nature of naming a few players who fit the classifications. It may be that Doug has already done this, but I couldn't tell from the article.

When I look at the clip of Nadal used to demonstrate the "u" backswing, I see more of what I call a "J" stroke: take the racket head back at the same level as the ready position, pointed up at about 45 degrees, and then make the forward swing with the forward "J" stroke. To me, the "U" backswing is exemplified by Michael Chang and Rafa's backhand is still actually a loop swing: he drops the racket head below the ball before starting the forward motion, although it is certainly more compact than the "C" swings Doug cites in the article.

The other question I would like to see investigated is the relationship of injuries, particularly wrist injuries, associated with the different stroke structures and grip combinations. I think consideration has to be given to biomechanical advantages of the different grips and distribution of stress through two hands/wrists/arms as opposed to one that has to, perhaps, hyper-extend to accomodate the particular structure (particularly weaker forehand grip with bottom hand). While the continental grip described may lead to greater leverage because of a little longer lever arm, the biomechanical advantage of that position far outweighs the additional stress that may be created and enables the right side to contribute much more effectively to the workload.

Definitely looking forward to the second article.

don

Don,
two very loosely related publications:
Roetert,E.P., Kovacas,M., Knudson, D., & Groppel, J. (2009) Biomechanics
of the groundstrokes: implications for strength training. STRENGTH AND
CONDITIONING JOURNAL,31(4),41-49

Knudson, D. (2007) Biomechanical issues of abdominal and groin injuries in
tennis. MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN TENNIS, 12(2), 9-11.
A method to measure stress is described in

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465297/?tool=pubmed

Regards,
Julian

[bman]

I don't really get how anyone's backswing looks like a "u". Is it a "U" laying on it's side? Oh wait, that is a "c". I think Nadal and Agassi both have loops, but they don't raise their hands at all, like some of the women do.

[DougEng]

Data on Loops

Study did preliminary look at about 80 players and in depth at about 23 players (all #1 women since Steffi Graf and all men either top 5 at the time of writing or a major finalist or champion in the past decade). About 80% of women used continental on the bottom hand and 2/3 of men used a continental backhand grip. That immediately implied less wrist with the men.

Yes, I had Nadal classified as a medium loop, not a U. Not sure how that got in. Below are just the 23 players mentioned (not entire list). (I also have the chart on grips but this part just focuses on loops/backswings). I looked at at least 8 strokes of each player in depth.

A quantitative longitudinal study is quite difficult since players may alter their swings depending on the situation. Which is why this is more qualitative.

Best,
Doug

Loops of Champions.jpg

I thought this was a really great article. It goes to the root of the problems we face trying to teach juniors developing effective two-handed backhands while dealing with the mixture of grips and the habits they have unknowingly developed as they started out.

But I do have a couple of points:

I would like to see a deeper statistical analysis of a greater number of players to see how well these classifications hold up. There are no double-blind studies here, but it would be nice to try and take this beyond the almost anecdotal nature of naming a few players who fit the classifications. It may be that Doug has already done this, but I couldn't tell from the article.

When I look at the clip of Nadal used to demonstrate the "u" backswing, I see more of what I call a "J" stroke: take the racket head back at the same level as the ready position, pointed up at about 45 degrees, and then make the forward swing with the forward "J" stroke. To me, the "U" backswing is exemplified by Michael Chang and Rafa's backhand is still actually a loop swing: he drops the racket head below the ball before starting the forward motion, although it is certainly more compact than the "C" swings Doug cites in the article.

The other question I would like to see investigated is the relationship of injuries, particularly wrist injuries, associated with the different stroke structures and grip combinations. I think consideration has to be given to biomechanical advantages of the different grips and distribution of stress through two hands/wrists/arms as opposed to one that has to, perhaps, hyper-extend to accomodate the particular structure (particularly weaker forehand grip with bottom hand). While the continental grip described may lead to greater leverage because of a little longer lever arm, the biomechanical advantage of that position far outweighs the additional stress that may be created and enables the right side to contribute much more effectively to the workload.

Definitely looking forward to the second article.

don

[DougEng]

I don't really get how anyone's backswing looks like a "u". Is it a "U" laying on it's side? Oh wait, that is a "c". I think Nadal and Agassi both have loops, but they don't raise their hands at all, like some of the women do.

See the chart attached to another comment I made. Serena, Hewitt, Safin and Nalbandian all use U backswings. Not a C. Visualize what a U is and trace is in the backswing and then swing forward again. It is a U where your backswing and forward swing follow the same path more or less. In a C swing, the backswing is higher than the forward swing and the paths do not general coincide. Incidentally, Justine Henin used a U swing in her backswing...and she's one-handed of course.

[DougEng]

Chang uses U, Rafa C

Yes, Chang uses a U, Rafa a C.
Serena, Safin, Nalbandian and Hewitt all use U backswings.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_backhand/sw_bh_center/sw_bh_center.html?SWBHCenterCourtLevelSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/marat_safin/ms_backhand/ms_bh_center/ms_bh_center.html?MSBHCenterNeutralStanceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=466&stc=1&d=1324353599

I thought this was a really great article. It goes to the root of the problems we face trying to teach juniors developing effective two-handed backhands while dealing with the mixture of grips and the habits they have unknowingly developed as they started out.

But I do have a couple of points:

I would like to see a deeper statistical analysis of a greater number of players to see how well these classifications hold up. There are no double-blind studies here, but it would be nice to try and take this beyond the almost anecdotal nature of naming a few players who fit the classifications. It may be that Doug has already done this, but I couldn't tell from the article.

When I look at the clip of Nadal used to demonstrate the "u" backswing, I see more of what I call a "J" stroke: take the racket head back at the same level as the ready position, pointed up at about 45 degrees, and then make the forward swing with the forward "J" stroke. To me, the "U" backswing is exemplified by Michael Chang and Rafa's backhand is still actually a loop swing: he drops the racket head below the ball before starting the forward motion, although it is certainly more compact than the "C" swings Doug cites in the article.

The other question I would like to see investigated is the relationship of injuries, particularly wrist injuries, associated with the different stroke structures and grip combinations. I think consideration has to be given to biomechanical advantages of the different grips and distribution of stress through two hands/wrists/arms as opposed to one that has to, perhaps, hyper-extend to accomodate the particular structure (particularly weaker forehand grip with bottom hand). While the continental grip described may lead to greater leverage because of a little longer lever arm, the biomechanical advantage of that position far outweighs the additional stress that may be created and enables the right side to contribute much more effectively to the workload.

Definitely looking forward to the second article.

don

[DougEng]

I don't really get how anyone's backswing looks like a "u". Is it a "U" laying on it's side? Oh wait, that is a "c". I think Nadal and Agassi both have loops, but they don't raise their hands at all, like some of the women do.

Here's a photo showing at the initial shoulder turns on the backswing. Hewitt drops his racquet down, Sharapova raises it. The U backswing takes the racquet back almost in the same path as the forward swing. Hence a U swing much like a skateboard (or snowboard) half pipe. In the C loop, the backswing and forward swing do not coincide as in the U.

You can also see Lleyton's elbows are straight and Maria's are bent.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=468&stc=1&d=1324354709

[tennis_chiro]

Great work, Doug!

Thanks, Doug. That's great work. I'm going to need a free afternoon to go through and follow your work with the archives. I may finally get a handle on bent/bent vs. bent/straight. There certainly are more than one or two ways to hit the ball! I wonder if you found any sign of the injuries I was suggesting in the 20% of the women and 1/3 of the men that didn't use the continental grip (I'm assuming they had weaker grips, rotated slightly towards the Eastern forehand).

don

[DougEng]

Injuries & grips

Good thought question. I'm not aware of any but ATP and WTA have a database on injuries and I could inquire. Right now Ben Kibler MD (on USTA Sport Science Committee) is leading a study on service motion and injury prevention among tour-level players. They looked at I think 200 players (2/3 WTA). I'm not aware of a similar study with backhands, although one-handed backhands is well-documented.

Thanks, Doug. That's great work. I'm going to need a free afternoon to go through and follow your work with the archives. I may finally get a handle on bent/bent vs. bent/straight. There certainly are more than one or two ways to hit the ball! I wonder if you found any sign of the injuries I was suggesting in the 20% of the women and 1/3 of the men that didn't use the continental grip (I'm assuming they had weaker grips, rotated slightly towards the Eastern forehand).

don

[jasonfrausto]

Yes, Chang uses a U, Rafa a C.
Serena, Safin, Nalbandian and Hewitt all use U backswings.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/serenawilliams/sw_backhand/sw_bh_center/sw_bh_center.html?SWBHCenterCourtLevelSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/marat_safin/ms_backhand/ms_bh_center/ms_bh_center.html?MSBHCenterNeutralStanceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...1&d=1324353599

Doug,

Good article, and agreed about Safin, Hewitt, Nalbandian etc. etc. is that they start the racket head in a downward position and bring it up in the backswing, so indeed it isn't a true loop. I refer to this as the pendulum backhand swing, but it can also be viewed as a U visually. It is indeed different from a guy like Rafa who starts his unit turn with the racket head up. Again, nice article. To me this is merely a difference in style, and I've yet to teach a student the "U" backswing. I look forward to future articles.

[DougEng]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the comments. Yes, they are different styles. The question is whether they actually have an impact on tactical outcomes. I don't think there's much difference between either the compact (primary shoulder) swing and U.
However, there is a mechanical difference between the U and the large C.
You don't see U's or pendulums using much wrist since it's a stiffening of the wrist so mechanical leverage is different.

Happy New Year!
Doug

Doug,

Good article, and agreed about Safin, Hewitt, Nalbandian etc. etc. is that they start the racket head in a downward position and bring it up in the backswing, so indeed it isn't a true loop. I refer to this as the pendulum backhand swing, but it can also be viewed as a U visually. It is indeed different from a guy like Rafa who starts his unit turn with the racket head up. Again, nice article. To me this is merely a difference in style, and I've yet to teach a student the "U" backswing. I look forward to future articles.