The Pro Slice and Your Slice

[johnyandell]

Love to hear what people thought about The Pro Slice and Your Slice

John Yandell

[tennis_chiro]

Turn your shoulders a little more!

John,

That's a great article. And poor Bottle is going to be up for days trying to incorporate that article and Murphy's and Cronin's articles with his recent quest for "backhand bliss"(my words, not Bottle's). You also had the benefit of using a machine feed to set up your video angles perfectly and compare the two strokes. That was excellent, but it also leads me to my suggestion of what is missing in your high backhand.

It's only reasonable to assume that with a ball at a higher height and still bouncing upward creating an upward "angle of reflexion" (angle of reflexion = angle of incidence) that the swing would have to have a greater downward component. But as we hit a higher ball at a higher contact point, it becomes more difficult to drive through that ball to the target. You have to start the racket from a place that is further "inside" and that means the initial position of your shoulders has to be turned further away from the net. Your video shows almost the same preparation in both shots.

On a slice drive, we are using the open racket face to give the ball the necessary lift to overcome gravity and get over the net, as well as to get underspin and slice; on a ball above shoulder height and going higher, you don't need nearly as much of that lift and it's pretty hard to hit much more than a defensive floater on a high bouncing ball with a one-handed slice backhand. I don't think Rosewall would have played that ball above his shoulders; he would have taken it on the rise at waist level. Of course, we'll never know; I can't think of anyone today who can execute this shot, move forward and follow it up with the degree of net play proficiency that would be necessary. Perhaps we could look back at how Rafter and Henman handled some of the heavy topspinners of their day; even Fish would be more likely to drive such a ball with his two-hander. It might be interesting to check how Llodra deals with this problem. We also could check for some old footage of McEnroe vs. Vilas or even Borg; players were always complaining of sore shoulders after playing Bjorn.

Remember that the rate of spin is going to be proportional to the angle between the vector of downward motion of the swing and the vector directly perpendicular to the face of the racket. If those two are the same, no spin (increase or decrease except for some influence of gravity); as those two diverge, spin increases.

The "modern pro slice" works against the modern topspin forehand. But that is in the context of a game where almost no one knows how to transition to the net, because they seldom do. That high bouncing ball is handled much better by a 2hbh. 1hbh players must learn to handle the high bouncing ball with a very difficult high topspin backhand that sends the ball back deep in the court. I remember Puerta's high backhand as a good example of this. Federer doesn't seem to play that shot very well and his solution has been that slice. Personally, I'd like to see him play more balls early as he has done in this recent swing, but that is much tougher to do with the uncertainty of outdoor clay bounces.

I've seen a lot of juniors play high bouncing balls early and marveled at how they did it; I think players like Rosewall (that's a malaprop!) would have played those high bouncing balls early. But if you want to hit a 1hbh on a high ball, whether it's with a slice or a topspin or flat ball, you better get those shoulders turned further inside.

don

[don_budge]

Who is that guy?

If that is you in the video...who is that guy down at the bottom of the page?

Great article!

[bottle]

Re # 2, Second Sentence

I won't be up for more than the few minutes it takes to type this reply. 1) Tennis players ought to make crisp decisions. I decided sometime back to hit the majority of my slices through the ball. 2) Decided-- from personal research!-- that hitting these flat slices in imitation of Steffi Graf was more productive for me (and perhaps for other players like me). I therefore want to see the elbow roll up from hand as part of the forward action before it (elbow) plunges down causing the racket tip to swing higher over the top. 3) Don't want to sound snotty, but for me a contrast of Steffi-slice and Ken-slice is more interesting and immediately productive than between Ken-slice and any other except Barbie's.

[johnyandell]

DB,

Me again obviously...

John

[don_budge]

Deniro and the Slice Backhand...

DB,

Me again obviously...

John

I like this one too...sort of Edward Norton Jr....at the controls.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/staff/bio/j_yandell_prof_bio.gif

But the one thing that I noticed in your video of the one hand slice is the way that you sort of lay your torso on the ball. The weight of your chest is directly over your front foot at contact...one of the keys to this shot. Tommy English's own Elmira doing the "Flamingo" step on her slice illustrates this point very effectively. Don Budge had a very similar and noticeable manner of not so subtly it seems engaging his whole upper body in his swing. He perceptively thrust his chest at the ball at times...and I think that Rosewall, too, has this action with his swing.

Notice how Kramer's chest never seems to leave the ball as he makes contact and the ball is leaving his racquet. Kramer is playing a ball that is slightly below his waist which allows for a nice semi-sitting posture with his rear end back and his head forward which greatly enhances his balance at impact...Nikae take note. That is one beautiful classic video shot of Jack's slice. He seems to be coming across on the inside of the ball from the opposite side of the middle service hash mark part of the court. Interesting. A fellow golfer gave me a swing tip once here in Sweden...he told me to keep my chest on the ball. I found that this was an excellent tip that helped me to shoot some of my best rounds.

The placement of both your feet and Giancarlo's feet appear to be somewhat different as the ball gets higher as well. The front foot is planted noticeably more in front or rather more diagonally on the higher balls...maybe facilitating a bigger shoulder turn.

I really enjoyed this article for a couple of reasons...one of them being that you chose to put yourself in it. Nice shades...The Man in Black...almost Deniro-esque. We have been having some rather lively discussions about slice backhands on the forum this year so it seemed rather appropriate for you to weigh in on the matter. Gonzalez advises hitting up, not down, on balls that get high and deep on the backhand in his book "Tennis" by Pancho Gonzalez. I wonder if he would maintain that assertion if he were to witness the massive amount of spin being played in the modern game.

"I think in many cases club players are hitting more underspin than they actually may need, sacrificing pace, and adding difficulty and complexity to the swing pattern that can produce inconsistency."

This is a reasonable conclusion...my sentiments exactly.

[woodyfreeman]

Conventional Pointers Undertaught!

It was great to read on this topic. I teach the "old school" method slice, and think there is a lot of advantage in it that goes untaught. On the other hand, against truly big topspin, I do think the new, heavy underspin is needed - the slice needs to be hit with matching acceleration (and there is no other way).

The main advantage to the conventional slice, (in my opinion!), is that it encourages a good shoulder turn and swing across the body (that stays sideways longer). I like to teach the tip to be "up" at contact (this is more about a solid wrist), and the strings to slice down, but around the outside of the ball (again, it's not really hitting much of the outside of the ball, but the swing path is better this way), and the tip leads the hand on the follow thru with the wrist staying firm.

With this type of shot, the player can penetrate by hitting thru the court better. Also, a lot of underspin can still be generated. And lastly, there can be some compromises between the styles a little!

[johnyandell]

Woody,

Great post. Exactly what I think myself.

John Yandell

[rwiener]

Classic is better than modern at the club level

I think we can safely assume that players like Rosewall & Laver in their prime with a wood racket using a classic style slice backhand drive would beat almost anyone alive today except the very top players. (I add Laver because I think people forget what a great slice backhand he had and that he typically played that shot in baseline rallies and reserved his superb topspin backhand as primarily a passing shot.) So it pretty obvious that the classic slice drive can be effective at any level except possibly in certain situations at the current highest level. To me the question is not can the classic slice drive be effective at the club level, but rather is it more effective than the modern pro slice drive at that level. I think the answer is clearly yes. Brent Abel shot video of the 2011 USA 60s Hardcourt Singles Semi-finals and Finals and put them up on youtube (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEjIt8rvAo). Larry Turville dominated that tournament using an extremely effective classic backhand slice drive. Well worth watching.

[johnyandell]

An excellent point.

Yeah I've played with Brent and I know how it feels to be on the end of that slice of his. Unless you were wanting to slow the ball down or float it for some situational stratetic reason, why would you not want to hit through and really drive it when you slice!

[GeoffWilliams]

Giancarlo does an awful lot of the work on the video clips, and deserves some credit from the members who may not know that. Thousands of hours in front of a computer monitor, slicing and dicing to the millimeter. Thanks so much for all that pain and eye strain, G.

[giancarlo]

Thanks for the shout-out Geoff. The slicing and dicing of the clips has taught me so much about the game over the years. I feel like every time I just finished a player library, that I have absorbed some small part of him/her through watching the clips over and over through the process. I am hoping all you guys enjoy this incredibel footage as much as I do.

Many thanks,
gc

[GeoffWilliams]

The only thing that will be remembered in the future is the video. Does anyone read books from Laver's time, or Hoads, or Buenos, or etc.? Not even in print. Not in any libraries. The video lives on forever.