Interactive Forum December 2011: Roger Federer - Forehand Drop Shot

[johnyandell]

Roger Federer Forehand Drop Shot

If you enjoyed watching Roger Federer win in London as much as I did, one of the things you noticed was how many times he hit forehand drop shots then followed them in--and how effective it was. Strangely, testing one of our high speed cameras we caught the same shot last year at Indian Wells. So what do you see happening?

[johnyandell]

Quicktime Version

[don_budge]

Anticipating Roger's Thunder...then faced with a Federfore Featherer.

What's the name of that Springsteen tune...Brilliant Disguise?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idnJnjV_8rg&list=PLXSZPPDHGhk80IDuKL4iQ1JdPI4FYFvPq&index=4&t=0s

Brilliant Disguise....Bruce Springsteen

I hold you in my arms
As the band plays
What are those words whispered baby
Just as you turn away
I saw you last night
Out on the edge of town
I wanna read your mind
To know just what I've got in
This new thing I've found
So tell me what I see
When I look in your eyes
Is that you baby
Or just a brilliant disguise

Now you play the loving woman
I'll play the faithful man
But just don't look too close
Into the palm of my hand
We stood at the altar
The gypsy swore our future was right
But come the wee wee hours
Well maybe baby the gypsy lied
So when you look at me
You better look hard and look twice
Is that me baby
Or just a brilliant disguise

Tonight our bed is cold
I'm lost in the darkness of our love
God have mercy on the man
Who doubts what he's sure of

Well talk about lovely tennis shots. This little feathery is a stroke of genius and it's brilliance is in it's disguise. The initial manipulation of the racquet head with the shoulder turn allows The Swiss Maestro to perform two radically different motions, he can pound it into the corners or he can soothe it and smooth it trickling over the net...how beautiful is that? It hurts when you realize what is coming...you've been fooled!

With his racquet head in proper position...where the racquet head is higher than his hand and just as importantly the head of the racquet is just barely behind his hand so that he has maintained the subtle flex in his wrist, he is in position to make this soft caress on the ball with his strings moving subtly down and across the back of the ball. It's basically a forehand volley stroke. Notice he is not accomplishing this motion with just his hand...or just his arm...or just anything for that matter. His entire being is into this shot...every bit as much as it is behind his Federfore forehand blast or his biggest serves. The whole being of Roger Federer is into his softest shot...with just the right proportion of forward movement necessary to accomplish such a soft placement. Voila...the Federfore Featherer.

The subtle forward movement as he is making contact with the ball is the key. Many try to slide the racquet under the ball with the wrist or try to absorb the ball into the racquet with an almost backwards movement which are both very risky tries on this type of shot...in fact they don't make any sense statistically speaking. Look at his eyes and the position of his head. No head fakes. No no-lookies. The racquet head must be accelerating through the ball on contact or else you can kiss all semblance of control goodbye. Knowing Roger Federer...knowing what a control freak he is, this is going to be the last thing he is going to surrender on such a tender shot...control.

The most difficult aspect of making short putts in golf is the realization that you must accelerate the putter face through the ball. You have got to swing the putter. For you golfer/tennis players out there try visualizing swinging through to the point of the ball that is closest to the hole or rather closest to the net. Trying to push the ball into the hole or trying to wish it into the hole creates a large degree of uncertainty or doubt even on short putts or shots. That is the last thing you want to be feeling on such a delicate shot or stroke...it's the kiss of death. The same thing applies here...you have to swing the racquet. Even the shortest of shots share some of the most fundamental characteristics as the bigger shots...turn the body away from the ball and move the body through the ball. Weight forward on the front foot and accelerate the racquet head through the ball...it's virtually the same recipe for making short putts.

This tennis player is an artist and you could say that he is "poetry in motion".
Would it be possible to see this shot from the other side of his body so that we can fully appreciate the disguise of his backswing? It's one thing to hit brilliantly disguised backhand drop shots and quite another to deliver the feathery touch off the forehand side...as in the Federfore Featherer.

God have mercy on the man...who doubts what he's sure of.

[tennis_chiro]

Grip change!?

I tried, but I couldn't detect more than the slightest grip change after the serve and that was actually prior to him reaching the unit turn position...so the disguise is really complete!

Anybody else out there able to tell if he is using his actual forehand grip to hit this beauty?

don

[forehand]

Looks like he is using his "waiting grip" for the shot. Watch his hands after he completes his service motion, do you see a subtle grip change towards the forehand, but not a complete change? His left hand is still on the throat of the racquet to assist a further grip change depending on what the service return looks like and what type of shot Fed wants to hit.

My observation is that Fed and a lot of other top players use an intermediate grip when "waiting" to see what shot their opponents hit and which shot they will consequently need to hit themselves. The waiting grip will tend to be biased towards the forehand, but quite often a soft version of the players´forehand grip. The final set up of the grip structure normally takes place during the unit turn. This is especially pronounced when watching clips of a player like Safin hitting backhands.

To address the specific question: To me it looks like he is somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip when hitting the shot. That said: I think Fed has so much feel that he could pull off that shot wth a western forehand grip.

Best,
F.

[don_budge]

The strong side of continental for forehand volleys...and drop shots.

To address the specific question: To me it looks like he is somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip when hitting the shot. That said: I think Fed has so much feel that he could pull off that shot wth a western forehand grip.

I think that you are exactly right forehand...."somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip" would be the forehand volley grip. This is an interesting note when it comes to teaching volley grips...particularly on the forehand side. Traditionally it seems that the term continental was most frequently used in association with volley technique, but I think that your description is more apropos these days for forehand volleys.

With this in mind...if the grip is a bit stronger on the forehand, a good backhand volley stroke can still be accomplished in the event that the player does not have sufficient time to change to a stronger backhand grip because the weaker grip will encourage more under spin, which is acceptable in my book. Then the emphasis on the backhand volley played with a weaker grip becomes more one of placement and touch with a combination of penetration due to the additional spin.

If you notice the position of the racquet that Roger is in when he begins his descending stroke on the ball and if you can imagine him fitting his hand to the racquet relative to his body position your description is a precise fit. That being said...I don't think Roger would ever attempt such a shot with a western grip because his statistical capability would go noticeably south and this guy is all about playing the odds in his favor...but I get your point.

[stotty]

Funny place to play a dropshot from...just inside the baseline...bet he wasn't playing Djokovic or Nadal I agree entirely with Forehand about the grip.

The follow-through is short. He doesn't quite cradle the shot like McEnroe or Nastase used to. Fed's dropshots are much more straight forward. He can hit them better than most players in the game today but they are by no means exceptional if you track back thru history a little. Mac's and Nasty's were exquisite...Murray has a lovely dropshot, though.

[dimitrios]

I think that you are exactly right forehand...."somewhere between a continental and his normal forehand grip" would be the forehand volley grip. This is an interesting note when it comes to teaching volley grips...particularly on the forehand side. Traditionally it seems that the term continental was most frequently used in association with volley technique, but I think that your description is more apropos these days for forehand volleys.

Is this really a more modern technique, i.e., to have the grip between a true continental and, say, an eastern forehand grip? I've found in my own playing that making the extra effort to stay in a true continental (my grip likes to slip toward, but not all the way to, an eastern fh grip) helps the control and consistency on my volleys quite a bit. In fact I've made this change within the last two months and seen a notable difference in the results between the two grips.

[dimitrios]

It's basically a forehand volley stroke....

The subtle forward movement as he is making contact with the ball is the key.... The racquet head must be accelerating through the ball on contact or else you can kiss all semblance of control goodbye.

Mr. Budge, a few questions:

First, while this and a forehand volley stroke share many similarities, isn't the arm action here much more downward than forward -- at least compared to a FH volley?

Second, I think your point about racquet/club acceleration is spot-on, and worth being reminded of (especially as in tight moments that's exactly what ails me!). That said, I'm curious as to how much RF's racquet is accelerating here. It's certainly hard to tell from the high-speed footage, and moreover his limited follow through seems suggestive of somewhat diminished racquet head speed.

[don_budge]

Federer drop shots...volleys, half-volleys and grips.

Is this really a more modern technique, i.e., to have the grip between a true continental and, say, an eastern forehand grip? I've found in my own playing that making the extra effort to stay in a true continental (my grip likes to slip toward, but not all the way to, an eastern fh grip) helps the control and consistency on my volleys quite a bit. In fact I've made this change within the last two months and seen a notable difference in the results between the two grips.

But I think traditionally volley’s have been encouraged to be stroked with continental grips and if the trend is towards a stronger forehand grip these days there are not enough volleyers around to measure and get a clear picture of such a trend...or the reason’s why. Personally, I can see some very good reasons for sliding around a bit toward the eastern side of continental on the forehand volley grip and much of it has to do with the height of the shot to be played and the amount of spin upon said shot. Shots that are played at the height of the net and higher might be played with a slightly stronger grip than continental because a weaker grip is going to encourage more underspin which is not what I want on my forehand volley, especially nowadays when passing shots resemble the dipping bullets...I want a ball with a bit more “pop” and a bit more penetration. I like a slightly flatter ball, although still struck with underspin...and above all, I don’t want my first volley to sit up and give my opponent another ungodly swing with the associated amount of overspin leaving me trying to volley another dipping bullet. The slightly stronger grip has the effect of slightly closing down the face of the racquet as opposed to the continental grip which will effectively open the face and encourage more spin. It seems to me that with the way the body is set up relative to the hand on the racquet to hit shots of this height and higher it makes sense to take advantage of the height to hit more “crisply” and without pronounced spin.

On the other hand if one is trying to win with delicate placement and touch, you might find your hand sneaking back to the continental side of the grip. If one is volleying balls that are below the net and diving at your feet a continental grip might be more appropriate as well. This goes for half volleys that are to be struck with underspin...whereas half volleys with over spin might be more comfortably accomplished with a grip leaning towards eastern. See my point?

I don’t believe that it is written anywhere in stone that one must use any one grip for volleys and I don’t believe that it is written anywhere in stone regarding balls that are to be hit off the bounce. The grip many times is dictated by what type of shot is to be played, what kind of spin and at what height the ball is to be played. The modern game makes it a bit simpler the way it is being played today, except maybe in Federer’s case, as the strong grip forehand and the two hand backhand are the predominate strokes of choice. If you are playing all-court tennis, or even doubles for that matter, you might find that your grip is sliding back and forth a bit...and for good reason. As in variety of shot selection.

But you see...this is mostly theory and my personal experience. If you are experiencing success with the strictly continental grip, my position would certainly be to stick with it. You cannot argue with success.

Mr. Budge, a few questions:

First, while this and a forehand volley stroke share many similarities, isn't the arm action here much more downward than forward -- at least compared to a FH volley?

Second, I think your point about racquet/club acceleration is spot-on, and worth being reminded of (especially as in tight moments that's exactly what ails me!). That said, I'm curious as to how much RF's racquet is accelerating here. It's certainly hard to tell from the high-speed footage, and moreover his limited follow through seems suggestive of somewhat diminished racquet head speed.

If Federer was at the net and attempting to hit a crisp volley into one of the corners for instance you would be absolutely correct in your observation about the arm movement. Here he is attempting a drop shot from a rather long distance from the net, so accordingly he is relying on the arc of the ball and some rather fine placement to win for him and he is not relying upon crisp volley action on his ball to conclude the point. The steepness of his stroke reflects a visible attempt to apply more underspin and the longer follow through reflects the greater distance to the net. This action looks very close to what his technique would look like on a drop volley at the net...except it is perhaps longer as you have noted. I think too, that Federer tends to have a steeper volley stroke than may be advisable.

You make a couple of really astute observations here, dimitrios (thanks so much for the conversation)...as did tennis_chiro and forehand, I wondered all day about them. The question about how much his racquet is accelerating through the ball...at what speed, that is, is an interesting one. It, the acceleration, doesn’t have to be much and the action of his shoulders turning and the planting of his front foot don’t have to be so exaggerated either...as long as they take place at the precise moment that they should take place. Timing is everything...the right place at the right time. The racquet head, the turning shoulders and the weight placement leaning forward towards the front foot are all contributing to the momentum and the energy that is being displaced into the shot. You have to admit...it is all very subtle in nature.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

I have always admired Federer’s ability to drop shot off the forehand with the disguise he has built into his forehand backswing. I still believe the strength of this particular shot is his disguise. Once he gets the racquet to his side with the racquet head about head high he is in perfect position to pull off this shot...if he chooses to. I have worked on this shot in my own game as I have more or less mimicked his backswing, trying to incorporate the ability to hit this drop shot I find myself using a volley-like stroke for my best chance for success. It might even be more correct to describe this as a half volley variation...as it appears that this ball is being played on the rise.

Btw...do you know what the German word for feather is. It’s “feder”. Thus the Federfore Featherer.

Interactive Forum August 2011: Bernard Tomic Slice Backhands
see posts #14 and #17...

[don_budge]

From "Salzy Federer"...Volley technique

I wrote this some months ago in a thread entitled "Salzy Federer"...the thread had turned to a discussion about volleying. This description is further justification to comparing Federer's drop shot to a "volley like stroke" or even a "half-volley like stroke".

Volley...technique

The volley is optimally three motions simultaneously performed together to create a synergetic effect. Remember when hitting the ball in the air...less is better. Score with a combination of placement and solid contact rather than outright speed.

1. The weight is subtly shifted on to the front foot, the mark of a great volleyer...chest and shoulders over the front knee from bending at the waist.

2. Subtle rotation of shoulders rotating into the shot...imagine blocking or meeting the ball with the inside shoulder on the forehand side, or driving the front shoulder down into the ball on the backhand side.

3. Subtle arm and hand motion slightly downward to impart just enough backspin through the racquet head for control.

Really good volleyers are able to produce effective shots with motions 2 and 3 and at the same time..."stabilizing the body" as Don says, which means placing the body and racquet head in a position to form a nice wall against the approaching ball even if the front foot cannot be placed down in its optimal position. Wrong footing volleys is not necessarily wrong. Generally speaking...the more difficult the volley, the less motion. KISS.

If you wish to study volley technique you have to go back a bit farther than Rafter. He was a nice player...no knocks against him. But consider that the most monstrous thing about his volleys is the monster of a racquet he used. The Princess!



I would like to add as a footnote here about volley, drop shot and half-volley technique, that the weight is sinking into the front foot at the same time that the racquet head is sinking into the ball. I just love it when that happens.

One other note regarding the Maestro's technique on this particular drop shot that is a thing of poetic beauty, a major contributing factor to his playing tennis as an art form is the way he keeps the racquet face on the path of the ball after he has struck the shot. As an artist keep the paint brush on the line of flight.

Too many times the face of the racquet comes sliding through and off the path as the ball is struck coming over the top so to speak... even here it appears that Roger is striking this little beauty slightly from the inside track. I think that this aspect of keeping the racquet head on the path of the ball is one of the most important fundamental rules in hitting tennis balls, particularly true for forehand volleys.

I have often pondered Federer's forehand drop shot and it doesn't surprise me that there is so much to write about, at least for me, even though the shot is so small compared to the thunder he is capable of producing. The ability to slow down the action on the video is one of the real values of this site. It enables us to "see" what is happening moment to moment in such a delicate picture.

[don_budge]

Brilliant Disguise…To Roger Federer…From Bruce Springsteen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoEUwljiHv4

To Roger…thanks for all of the sweat, blood and tears. But here…it's Bruce and Patty. It's enough to…well you know.

And again…the acoustic version…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2BelSdIUOY

The Federer Featherer. Roger's drop shot. The touch. The majestic disguise. The inherent deceit. It's the lie. A thing of beauty. Sublime.

"God have mercy on the man who doubts what he is sure of."