Ok let's develop a serve!

[tennis_chiro]

Really looks good to me!!

G and I got back to it today. I thought I'd post this clip with G's hands starting closer together. His says his hands feel more in unison but the slight change makes the serve feel very different.

The serves are tame because he sore hamstrings from cross-country running...so no driving up to the ball... just motions.

http://youtu.be/B0Bc0ltGNPs

The backswing is looking much more fluid than it is was, too. He doesn't have to think about this anymore.

G (not me) also noticed a funny thing from watching Stich on youtube. He noticed Stich sweeps into the "up together" motion almost directly out of his ball bouncing routine. There is no steadying or collecting himself after the ball bouncing. The ball bounce is virtually connected to his service motion.

G has been serve and volleying all this week in my absence. This has helped his forward momentum quite a lot. He likes to serve and volley and is exceptionally good at the net. His backhand volley is a stunning shot for someone his age. I'll post a clip of it at some point.

Don_Budge Of course you can write a post for G. Write a post for him whenever you want.

I'll let his serve bed down for a while, then I think more spin, more driving up to the ball, and a more forward ball toss (and more to the right) are in order. Beach ball here we come...

To me that looks terrific. I think you are wise to leave it alone for a while. That's amazing progress since the beginning of the month in, what, less than 3 weeks. Great work for both of you!!

don
PS If someone had done this for Berdych when he was G's age, no one would even be able to get a whiff on his service games!!

[julian1]

Berdych-for Don

To me that looks terrific. I think you are wise to leave it alone for a while. That's amazing progress since the beginning of the month in, what, less than 3 weeks. Great work for both of you!!

don
PS If someone had done this for Berdych when he was G's age, no one would even be able to get a whiff on his service games!!

BTW:A serve of Berdych is analyzed in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBBO1YAWuiw&feature=related

[tennis_chiro]

I'm saying he could be much better!

BTW:A serve of Berdych is analyzed in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBBO1...eature=related

Julian, this is a nice serve analysis. However, there are a couple of points I disagree with. Certainly, there are a lot of different ways to toss the ball: synchronized, lagged/staggered and abbreviated are just three. And a lot of people have been able to make different motions work for them. If you are doing great fine. But I don't buy that there is not a BETTER way to do these things. Berdych has a lot of power because he has a deep "power" position as described in this video. He also has a lot of power because he has great snap and he is 6' 5" tall. But when you are that tall and are strugging to make 50% of your first serves and making a lot of doubles at key pressure times in your matches despite the thousands of hours he has practices his serve, I think he could be a lot better.

When you look at the "power" position in this video, note the orientation of the face of Berdych's racket as opposed to the face of Federer's racket. It's not just how low you can get this power position, to me it is how low you can get it when it is already moving in the plane towards the ball and the target. That's why the "backscratch" is a non-existent irrelevancy.

Take a comparison of Mardy Fish who is 3 inches shorter and about 20 lbs. lighter. Mardy routinely serves up to 140mph with a staggered motion, but he has a sound rhythm and great wrist action in his serve. It's an effortless motion.

Besides the point that Berdych's inability to get the serve in so often at key times is unacceptable, I think he could actually have had a more powerful serve with a little better mechanics. I think he is much quicker and actually more explosive than John Isner. Isner almost maximizes what he can get out of his serve, but he does not have the ability of Berdych to roam the baseline and I doubt he is even as powerful; nevertheless, he has put himself on the verge of being top ten with excellent technique and his obvious physical advantages, trying to hide his disadvantages (he's really slow!)

Most of all, he could have had a serve that he could have gotten in 70% of the time in the high 130's and low 140's. I think it might be possible to pull the stats out from archives at the ATP. I wonder what kind of stats Michael Stich had when he was winning Wimbledon back in 1992. And he was nearly 30 lbs. lighter than Berdych and just an inch shorter. He routinely served over 130 at a high percentage with no apparent effort.

don

[tennis_chiro]

I looked it up

I looked it up. It's pretty disappointing. Even if you compare indoors to indoors. Just go to the player on ATP site. Look up his record for a particular year and you can pull down the stats for a lot of his matches:

Stich against Edberg:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Match-Facts-Pop-Up.aspx?t=540&y=1991&r=6&p=S351

Indoors against Agassi at ATP Tour Championships:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Match-Facts-Pop-Up.aspx?t=605&y=1991&r=-4&p=S351

Winning Vienna indoors against Siemerink:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Match-Facts-Pop-Up.aspx?t=337&y=1991&r=7&p=S351

Not nearly as good as I thought, but still a lot better than Berdych's serving percentages this week: 46, 46, 45 and today, 53, but he couldn't get his serve in when he needed it.

don

[stotty]

Pancho

Interesting stats on the serve.

Pancho Gonzales had a 1st serve career average of 72 percent...not bad. I think Sampras's career average was around 64 percent.

[don_budge]

One last thing...

PART 10

The Conclusion ironically is The Beginning- The Set Up, The Toss and Attitude

develop...grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.

Stotty...Beautiful work. Michelangelo would be proud. A living statue...in motion. Watch it grow...and develop.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/champions/Ed_Atkinson/Ed_Atkinson_Seving_Greatnes/Ed_Atkinson_Seving_Greatnes.html

Just one final thing now. Read this article "Elements of Serving Greatness" by Ed Atkinson and see the sections "Starting Position" and "The Toss". Read about Jack Kramer practicing his "placement" or in other words, his toss. Atkinson talks of Kramer reading the print on the ball. Worthy advice. If you have developed a perfect motion it will be all for naught, unless you put the ball in the right position to swing at it. Ed, wherever you are...I love you.

I agree entirely with Atkinson's analogy of Kramer's toss as being worthy of a model. What's more is that all four of these great servers in his article would agree with him...if they were alive. Don Budge personally taught me the same thing. The toss is to the right of the head and into the court. "G"'s swing is now calibrated to be most effective and trustworthy hitting the ball in this position...and there is only one point in time and space where everything is perfect.

Now that we agree as to where to toss the ball, the question is what is the most effective manner in which to deliver the ball there, in a repeatable manner. The answer to this important question lies in the set up. This is what I recommend.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSAdFront5.mov

In this video clip Roger Federer is in perfect position to deliver his toss to the exact and precise point where it needs to be every time. He is bent over at the waist so that his sternum is directly over his front foot. He has poised his racquet forward in his stance so that the hand that holds the ball is directly below the point where he would like to hit it. This is one of the most important aspects of a correct setup...and the one that I advocate. With one minor modification...Roger's idiosyncrasy in his set up is in the manner he begins his motion with his racquet already descended so the tip is somewhat down. My idea is to have the tip pointing at the target as if you are aiming a weapon...the Swedish major that I coach agrees. So does Eugen Herrigel in "Zen In the Art of Archery".

Speaking of aiming. Speaking of archery. Speaking of Zen. Don't forget good old Stan Smith's video on tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxcMr1Ya5w0

The lines...in the case of the serve. Think of it as lining up..or aiming. Putting all of your ducks in a row. All of your energy...potential and otherwise. One line is formed by the end of the toes in a line to your target. Start your racquet on this same line...now you have two lines. The backswing more or less swings along this line or somewhat parallel to it. When you are at the top of your swing, your shoulders are in line with your feet. Toss the ball on the same line of your feet and on the line of your backswing, which is give or take directly over the right shoulder as you are delivering the racquet head to the ball. Harvey Penick would say that you are taking "dead aim" here.

In this set up position another very important aspect of the service motion is also optimized and that is the free swinging of the arm in the backswing. The way that the body positions itself in this set up, the arm is free to swing from the shoulder without the body impeding its freedom. Just by rotating or turning the shoulders all of your objectives that we have been discussing here are maximized...and your student need to no longer look for someone to mimic or copy. He becomes the model for your program in two years...maybe less. But as he stands now...he is a trifle too upright in his setup position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wXkAK_iFBuQ

Federer may or may not be one of the greatest servers of all time. He is one of the best of the modern era. Here he is practicing...and he is practicing being loose and having an "I don't give a damn because I know I am that good" attitude. This is evidenced by his stepping on the baseline when he is practicing. If you are a great server you have this sort of fatalistic approach to the serve...you know it's going in because you know your motion is perfect. If you miss the first, you swing at the second harder and with more spin because you know that it is statistically impossible to miss two in a row.

The other aspect of serving that goes along with this fatalistic attitude is in the manner the server approaches the baseline to assume his set up position. I have an idea that there is a door approximately two meters behind the baseline that the server enters every time he approaches the baseline to serve and when he enters this door he is in service mode. Sometimes the server may or may not pause and enter the doorway just reminding himself that he has a great serve that cannot miss. Sometimes the server might want to pause at this "doorway" on important points before he proceeds to the line and bounce the ball a couple of times in order to take the time to calculate or contemplate everything that is about to happen. The score, the target, his opponent, his strategy, the possibilities...etc. Visualize. Perhaps key in on the one swing thought that makes you a great server. Location of the toss, the sensation of the racquet falling behind you, total relaxation and confidence, for instance. Take your pick. It helps to be thoughtful before you hurl yourself into battle.

But Federer certainly does a lot of wonderful things in his book of service. Tactically he is very sound as he really moves it around the box with variation of spin and speed...although sometimes his first service seems to go a bit wayward in critical situations. Maybe that is related to the little idiosyncrasy in his set up...his rhythm may deviate just the tiniest bit under pressure. I am just speculating here. Usually he is great under pressure and that is because he has a great motion. And he believes in it.

This has been an amazing thread...and thanks a million for the opportunity to work with you once again. It was like a wonderful conversation.

[DougEng]

OK...serve...

Nice stuff!

You already have plenty of comments so you need to weed out what's useful. And given you worked a good deal on the serve, I would let it develop more naturally from here on, at least for the next 6 months. I looked at the videos (frame by frame) and it seems you added some wrist flexion at the start which is good as it is a sign of relaxation. There's also some additional knee bend. His power (or trophy) position is fine. I wouldn't get hung up on it. I look more at the rotation and use cocking at the power position and of leg force and the launch position (with the racquet in the deepest slot and elbow at proportionally the highest and supination occurring). The biggest serves on the tour have good amount of cocking and supination naturally occurring in the last phase of the upwards drive. There's a great deal of talk about set-up which is less essential (therefore all these rhythms and stances, etc) and wrist action and pronation but that's preceded by slight supination in the launch position. It's created by a very relaxed arm position and powerful hip/shoulder drive resulting in a pre-stretched position. The trophy position is secondary, start, stance, etc are secondary. I believe you mentioned Mark at Revolutionary Tennis about arial views (I have several if I can find them) where you can the racquet head swinging away from the head while still in the launch position.

Two things for the future:
1) in the backswing (trophy position): rotation of the upper body, creating more separation angle, elbow cocking.
2) base: use of legs drive, not necessary getting farther into the court since he's using a platform stance but more upwards coordination and back kick. Getting 3-4" more upwards can produce a heavier serve. Because he doesn't have the leg drive, he tends to bend at the waist at the finish.
3) lower arm: allowing the last piece of the puzzle to happen, he straightens out and decelerates downwards. When he starts kicking the serve, he'll notice more use of the elbow in extension/flexion (at the end) and rotation. Yes, he could flex it 10 degrees more in the trophy position.

What he does extremely well now:
1) good power/trophy position. His racquet + lower arm could be straighter (keeping the wrist relaxed at the peak) in a line with a slight more elbow flexion.
2) outstanding flexibility in the shoulder/upper arm. Potentially this is the most important piece with the slight supination relaxation effect. Which separates the biggest serves from the rest (e.g, 140 from 110 mph). He gets into the slot beautifully. But he lacks the leg drive in the slot (he needs that force to happen, upwards and inwards/forward)

Ultimate it is #2 and his hand/speed...innervation of fast twitch muscles that will get him the best serve. Adding a bit more forward motion can help. Attached is analysis of good and things that can improve. Green is good, red can be improved. In the single photo, imagine if he rotated about 20 degrees more into the court with his hips/shoulders, where would the racquet be? It's already at a slight angle (North-Northwest...about 10-15 degree from north). Most players get a straight north position. Biggest serves get the 10 NNW position with added rotation (20 degrees)...that is the hard part since it requires delaying the load or upwards arm movement in exchange for more rotation of the shoulder and hips. If you observe when he rotates another 20 degrees, he loses this NNW slot position. That's difficult to do. So if he can, it can be impressive.

Best,
Doug

[DougEng]

Photos...

Here are analysis of photos if you don't want to open attachments.
I deleted arrows on second photo since it's a perception of angles...if he
rotated more away to the back fence, you'll see a great angle (flexion) in the elbow

Best
D

G Serve Collage Ann Small.jpg

G Serve Analysis 5 back.jpg

[julian1]

For Don-a racket face orientation

Julian, this is a nice serve analysis. However, there are a couple of points I disagree with. Certainly, there are a lot of different ways to toss the ball: synchronized, lagged/staggered and abbreviated are just three. And a lot of people have been able to make different motions work for them. If you are doing great fine. But I don't buy that there is not a BETTER way to do these things. Berdych has a lot of power because he has a deep "power" position as described in this video. He also has a lot of power because he has great snap and he is 6' 5" tall. But when you are that tall and are strugging to make 50% of your first serves and making a lot of doubles at key pressure times in your matches despite the thousands of hours he has practices his serve, I think he could be a lot better.

When you look at the "power" position in this video, note the orientation of the face of Berdych's racket as opposed to the face of Federer's racket. It's not just how low you can get this power position, to me it is how low you can get it when it is already moving in the plane towards the ball and the target. That's why the "backscratch" is a non-existent irrelevancy.

Take a comparison of Mardy Fish who is 3 inches shorter and about 20 lbs. lighter. Mardy routinely serves up to 140mph with a staggered motion, but he has a sound rhythm and great wrist action in his serve. It's an effortless motion.

Besides the point that Berdych's inability to get the serve in so often at key times is unacceptable, I think he could actually have had a more powerful serve with a little better mechanics. I think he is much quicker and actually more explosive than John Isner. Isner almost maximizes what he can get out of his serve, but he does not have the ability of Berdych to roam the baseline and I doubt he is even as powerful; nevertheless, he has put himself on the verge of being top ten with excellent technique and his obvious physical advantages, trying to hide his disadvantages (he's really slow!)

Most of all, he could have had a serve that he could have gotten in 70% of the time in the high 130's and low 140's. I think it might be possible to pull the stats out from archives at the ATP. I wonder what kind of stats Michael Stich had when he was winning Wimbledon back in 1992. And he was nearly 30 lbs. lighter than Berdych and just an inch shorter. He routinely served over 130 at a high percentage with no apparent effort.

don

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