Ok let's develop a serve!

[stotty]

On players that already can serve, non beginners, I like to start at the feet and work up. In all of the posted videos of G, he doesn't land in the court far enough. In fact in the last two videos that I viewed he either landed in the posisition he started in or actually backed up a little.

I believe he would get more power if he exploded "up and into" the court more. I believe he should land 4 or 5 inches into the court with left foot.

Good luck and I hpoe this will help him.

I agree with you...thanks for your help. Exploding upwards will come later...at the moment it's all about rhythm and timing. It's not easy what he is trying to do...emulate Stich that is. We'll get there

I couldn't get on court with him today because he had a ratings tournament in London. He won one match and lost the other. I wasn't there but he said he played badly but served quite well. He says he is preoccupied with his serve and finds it difficult concentrate on points as well - understandable in my view.

[vrc10s]

Weight

On players that already can serve, non beginners, I like to start at the feet and work up. In all of the posted videos of G, he doesn't land in the court far enough. In fact in the last two videos that I viewed he either landed in the posisition he started in or actually backed up a little.

I believe he would get more power if he exploded "up and into" the court more. I believe he should land 4 or 5 inches into the court with left foot.

Good luck and I hpoe this will help him.

[tennis_chiro]

Much improved

In my book, better than half the rhythms on the men's tour and about 90% of the rhythms on the women's tour. Big improvement. He'll do better when he studies Stich a little more.
Here are the links to 3 views of the Stich serve at the Grand Slam Cup 1993:

Court Level from the Ad Net Post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2jxYly-ziY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Court Level from the Rear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJMIAulE4jU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Directly Overhead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5iBOSZ1fR4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

You can also take a look at the Front-Back-Front Service Rock video I put up on my youtube channel, GlobalTennisDC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki1JbK1i--s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and you can see some of the alternate backswings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNIXPtx5J3g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and even a version close to a Gonzales serve:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wESyQkyQeBY&feature=channel_video_title

And here's the actual Gonzales rock by Gonzales:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

don

[stotty]

Getting Rid of the Drag

I just had to have another go with G tonight. We only had 15 minutes but I (and G) was itching to make a start. I don't see a pause in the swing, just a drag in the early part of the backswing. I'm glad it was pointed out because I had missed it completely. In the short time available I set to work trying to get rid of it....while at the same time trying to keep the weight transfer intact.

Stich is now the definite model for G's serve. I am trying to get G to emulate Stich's preparation and early backswing up to the trophy position...and similar weight transfer. It isn't easy but we are determined to achieve...

Here are three serves http://youtu.be/88Tc-NIHBXk

See any improvement? Something's working because in the space of a week it's going a lot quicker.


I will show G the clips of Stich's serve this weekend. G is great at mimicking and this will help a lot

[tennis_chiro]

Just love this!!!!

...

The quote below is from my post titled "Roller Coaster of Love...Part 1" (From the "Racquet snaps the wrist on serve..." thread, tennis_chiro and I sound a bit like the dueling banjo's in the movie "Deliverance" in that thread. It's currently on page six in the forum.)

"Here we go...hold on to your hat! One thing that we must clarify before we go into any kind of explanation about the motion is the pressure of your grip. Sam Snead referred to the grip on his golf club as holding it with only so much pressure as you would hold a live bird. We only hold on with our hand tight enough to not let go of the racquet. We maintain only enough pressure in the entire arm, forearm and wrist to swing the arm and racquet back into position in one piece without disturbing the exact position that it is in at the setup position. We must eliminate all sources of tension and resistance when we are attempting to use pure gravity to dictate our motion. From this relaxed and confident position at setup we need only to release the racquet with our left hand that is supporting it, and allow the weight of the racquet head to merely fall upon the line of the track all the way back to the fence until it reaches a position at the top of the hill."
...

I just love this description of the backswing!!!
don

[stotty]

Thanks for that, DB. Yes, I'm getting a good picture of what to do and how to go about it. Another 30 minutes tonight...let's see how it goes.

Two things you might want to know about G:

1. He is great at mimicking...can emulate the shots many players on the tour. I intend to sit him done in front of those Stich clips...something could well rub off.

2. The boy is passive. A stroker and timer of a ball, not a hitter. It's hard to educate him about aggression because he just ain't mentally configured that way. He is very talented. When I get the chance sometime I'll post clips of him playing an all court rally. He's like a little Mecir at times...smooth, easy, languid, deceptive.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your efforts and help, Don_Budge. You are a wonderful writer and great at explaining the way to proceed.

[stotty]

Another good day....40 minutes practicing...just sticking with the same at the moment until he gets even more comfortable with the weight transfer. It's improving all the time, pace is starting to come...even better, the student is now fully on board with the concept.

I had him with the arms up and him slightly leaning over the baseline. The thing is with Stich when I watch his serve over and over again, there is no hard pressing down with the front foot... nor is there any hard pressing down on the back foot...it's all so gentle, relaxed and easy...it's almost weightless to look at...yet it's weight transfer to perfection.

Re the pause in the backswing, I had completely missed that one.

2 Debug backswing...small almost imperceptible pause on the way back. By swinging the arm and racquet in one position, and as one unit all of the way to the top of the backswing this small pause will disappear.

Is the key to achieve the above relaxation, gravity? I think because he is trying to control his arms thru an unfamiliar swing path he is a little tense in the arms...might take this on this weekend and see what I can come up with.

Over the weekend I will post some clips taken in daylight, which always come out better...plus some slomo clips.

I'm very grateful for everyones comments and input so far. I'm getting help with technical aspects of the serve that I was hitherto unaware of as a coach. I intend to give G the best serve possible. I think his foundation is sound and his potential is great.

I may post tomorrow is I get chance to do a couple of baskets with him.

[tennis_chiro]

Exactly!

Part 1,,,

Finally...with regards to your last video of the impromptu 45 minute session. You are absolutely on the right track...it's all about the setup and the backswing.

1 Fine tune setup...lean a bit more forward from the waist. Bobbing racquet head with arms and shoulders. And a one...and a two...and a three, here we go. Or, one for the money...two for the show...three to get ready....and go cat go.

2 Debug backswing...small almost imperceptible pause on the way back. By swinging the arm and racquet in one position, and as one unit all of the way to the top of the backswing this small pause will disappear.

3 We shall see where we stand after points 1 & 2. Arm action and footwork were very good at the beginning...it should be even better now. The more comfortable he gets, the more his shoulders will turn quite naturally.

I am very, very impressed with your last video and eagerly await your next submission...from the tone of your words.

I'm so much on the same page as D_B here, it amazes me. The "deliberate" nature of the backswing I referenced above is exactly what he is talking about in "debugging" the backswing.

I, too, am very curious to see your progress. I'm going to email you some videos of Stich's serve that will give you better comparison material.

keep up the good work,
don

[don_budge]

Repost...

PART 1

"Can you spot the problem with this serve?"

develop...grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.

Just a couple of things...

First of all, I would say for his age (how old?) he looks like he has a very fine basis for the service motion. Nice long backswing and most importantly, a nice big loop behind his back which is one of the biggest factors in developing a service motion.

You could leave it at that...there isn't anything really "wrong" with his motion but if he wants to improve I would suggest the following.

As Don suggests, it appears to me that his rhythm is less than optimal. He initiates his motion with a pull on the racquet whereas I like to see the motion initiated with a "dropping" of the racquet head. At the same time his throwing hand is in a funny position to begin with...but he corrects it in the middle of the motion as he correctly delivers the ball to serve it. Why not begin with the hand in the correct position, drop the racquet head and the rhythm issue is improved?

I don't care for his set up in the sense that it is a bit lackadaisical with little attention to his "aiming". Aiming is largely a product of setup as it is in the golf swing. Think, "Zen in the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel. I realize that he is young and just "going through the motions" for the camera but with such a fine motion, if he is mature enough to start thinking about the more intricate aspects of the swing, so much the better.

Since his motion is very good as it stands I would recommend the Stan Smith video where he discusses the number of targets that one can envision when serving against an opponent. Once he understands the importance of the setup with regard to aiming and then begins to practice aiming his serve, I believe you will see significant improvement.

My recommendations are to scrutinize his setup, initiate the swing with a drop of the racquet head, practice serves with intent (aiming at targets) and begin to develop tactics when serving to different opponents.

I like the motion and wish that I had half a dozen in my program just like him.

PART 2

It's developed alright...it's more like fine tuning at this point.


develop...grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.

With regard to his set up...I recommend that he start with a ratio of 70/30 of his weight distribution from the front foot to the rear foot. Take a look at Federer’s setup...he begins with his right foot poised on his toe. See how that just by turning his shoulders Federer accomplishes a total transfer to a 30/70 ratio of weight from his front foot to his back foot.

The power that you are searching for lies in this transfer of weight...and the inherent rhythm. In the setup and pre-serve routine I recommend setting the racquet more forward which will also move his tossing hand into a better position... then bobbing the racquet head up and down with both hands (engaging the shoulders and the rest of the body to do their work) two or three times and on the final bob let the head of the racquet drop...as the racquet head drops, the transfer of weight begins with the turning of the shoulders. Bobbing the head of the racquet is the equivalent of waggling the head of the golf club, which is ultimately paramount in the initiation of the motion from a static position.

The slow and methodical weight transfer that characterizes a McEnroe serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_serve/mac_1st_serve/mac_1st_serve.html?Mac1stSDeuceFront2.mov

The slow and methodical weight transfer that characterizes a Federer serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSAdCourtLevelRear1.mov

I think that you will be surprised how much more fluid the motion will appear with these two changes. The service is a chain reaction with each preceding move designed to initiate the next. His present setup is designed to somewhat hinder a long fluid backswing, giving him the appearance of a more woodeny posture than he actually has.

Two very nice things that the young man does is maintaining the path of his racquet head and staying on track in a line with his feet until it “drops” behind his back creating a nice full circle behind him. The delivery of the racquet head to the ball is quite nice also as evidenced by the nice "pop" sound with every hit.

There is easily another 30% more potential energy to be realized with a fuller backswing that is simply accomplished with a smooth and complete transfer of weight. This will encourage him to swing his shoulders back away from the ball on the backswing, then back to on the delivery.

With regard to the video evidence...there is one very important aspect of the serve that is missing in all of the footage. That is the walk up to the baseline that the player makes on his journey to the serve. It is very interesting to watch the routines and waggles that they use to prepare themselves for this explosive motion. Serving comes with an attitude and this attitude is often expressed in how players approach the baseline to serve. You can often see which players mean business in their approach to their setup...hopefully the attitude is one that clearly says, "you can't touch this". I would omit any player that bounces the ball more than three times...however.

PART 3

Michael Stich and Stefan Edberg...setup and weight transfer

develop...grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.

In your infinite wisdom...you have selected two players with very effective service motions, with Stich's being the more classic of the two and therefore more worthy of imitation or of being an example to an aspiring young protege. Both of them exhibit the weight transfer that I was trying to persuade you that is so important for your young charge in order that he can incorporate the key things that are important to you into his swing.

http://youtu.be/cf2vjXP_cHg?t=35s

Take a look at the Edberg serve at 3.43 in the clip...and the setup at 5.17. Since you are a fan of Stich's serve, take a look at the setup and motion at 4.50. He is executing precisely what I am trying to describe. Both of these player's service setup position with their weight and their racquets well forward in their stances which encourages them to swing their racquet and their arm in one unit and also to swing their bodies into position to make the most bio-mechanically efficient motion going forward.

Your boy has done a very nice job of delivering the racquet head to the ball from a somewhat awkward setup position...which is why I am alluding to the fact that he has another 30% of potential energy to be realized within his grasp if you set him up to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his arm action and the pause at the top will only come if it makes sense within the context of the timing of his motion to do so.

To get him to setup correctly...try having him bend at the waist a bit and shift the weight and the racquet forward and see what happens. The position of his feet is excellent.

Thanks again for putting your work on the forum for us to view and comment on.

PART 4

Patience and The Horse

develop...grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.

I agree that it would be nice to have the big serve working when he moves up an age group but he may not think so. With my prize student I have found myself having my patience tested on a number of issues but have found that usually my patience has paid off. Lately I have been patting myself on the back...but we shall see. I have not been in such a hurry for him to post results in the juniors...it's the mens events that are my goal. He can save his arm until it matters..but he should be ready to go when the bell tolls. That is when he is going to really need the big serve and hopefully it is coming around at this point. Recently I have been "emphasizing" the importance of taking the initiative with the serve and getting more positive feedback. Before it wasn't happening.

The "rock" is not so much back as it is down and up. The old down together, up together. The racquet drops...but so does the arm in harmony with the rest of the upper body...and the shoulder turn is executed with a turn as you lift, without noticeable movement backwards. Once again, I call upon golf speak...the turn is often described as taking place in a barrel with limited room for lateral movement.

Set up, drop, turn and lift. It's fairly simple, yet remains one of the great mysteries. Good luck and thanks again for sharing your thoughts and sharing your student. It certainly helps me to think out loud.

I think his arm and wrist motion is really good...I love the position of his feet and his footwork in general. It's only one piece of the puzzle. He may subconsciously be saving his arm for future use. I think he is destined to have a very good serve...it may only be a question of when. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink until he's ready. On the other hand...you can try to stimulate the thirst...just a bit.

[julian1]

Some related issues

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things

Please see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBBO1YAWuiw&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbLjGVd0xRs&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLf_MJXzBVg&feature=related

[stotty]

Any particular reason you're not getting him to kick back? Personally, I don't see the elbow angle as a problem, nearly as much as an overall lack of forward angular momentum.

Lack of kick back was something Geoff noticed, too. This is because of two reasons:

1. He isn't serving at full pelt.

2 His ball toss always goes to the left. You can see this in the clip showing his action from the rear... in the first post of this thread. He falls off to the left after finishing the serve. This prevents kick back because he is fighting for balance...and as you can see it often produces a serve that goes wide...never down the middle. If he gets a straight throw he does kick back, you'll get to see it in subsequent clips.

He is self-concious when being filmed and it plays havoc with his ball toss. God knows what it would be like in front of a crowd of 20,000!

[stotty]

Don,I write posts in a text editor first then cut and paste them into the forum...learnt my lesson long ago.

Thanks for the guidance, don. Not too sure what you mean by "bounces" off the right foot, referring to Stich.

I got another chance to work with G today, but before reading your post. I will go thru all the clips you sent with interest and work on the stuff you say. I think the work I have done so far with DB's help is very much along the same lines as yourself.

Don_Budge's suggestions seem to be working well and are simple to implement. Shame it was a drizzly day (I work outdoors), preventing me from filming. G really got the hang of the weight transfer today and was timing the "when to move forward" part really well. After 40 minutes, the serve was moving significantly quicker, and looked far better. I also worked quite a lot with him trying to get the racket head to drop gracefully to commence to action...worked really well...not quite like Stich or Pancho yet but give it time.

I'll have some clips up by the weekend, with luck!

[tennis_chiro]

The rock is the key

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things

Dammit! I just lost about an hour post. Hit the x instead of the button! So this will be very brief.

Two keys:
first: the weight transfer in the Stich serve goes only back to 50/50. This is critical. He BOUNCES off the right foot. Hands down/weight back; then hands up/weight forward. Difficult to learn at first, but then it is the best. I've been teaching this rhythm and making films of it for 40 years. Unfortunately, I don't have the films, but I do have the experience.

second: the toss needs to be automatic. If the hands start too low, there is not enough help from gravity and more importantly, the action is a deliberate one. Let the hands swing a little more. G's arm position looks fine (better than Berdych!!). But he looks too deliberate on the initiation of the toss before the hand starts to go up. I would really try to get him to hit 2 dozen serves starting the hands a little higher and bouncing off the right foot. One trick is to simply place a ball under the right heel.

here are some videos:
Don's Fig8 and Practice Toss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wkhxlMD-0o

Don's Serve 1985

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTennisDC#p/u/5/Tmoqsgiag3g

not exactly right,but really only back to 50/50

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

In the words of D_B, the model is Smith or maybe Newcombe.

This guy is also a pretty good model except that his toss hand goes a little too far behind the baseline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JulFZOAYvZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fUlXHdTx4

check these:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/mario_ancic/ma_serve/ma_1st_serve/ma_1st_serve.html?MA1stSDeuceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/timhenman/th_serve/th_1st_serve/th_1st_serve.html?TH1stSDeuceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/max_mirnyi/mm_serve/mm_1st_serve/mm_1st_serve.html?MM1stSDeuceSide1.mov

But it looks like you are really on the right track!
Good luck.
don

[10splayer]

Any particular reason you're not getting him to kick back? Personally, I don't see the elbow angle as a problem, nearly as much as an overall lack of forward angular momentum.

[stotty]

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things