Ok let's develop a serve!

[stotty]

Ok let's start trying to improve someone. It's a shame more of this doesn't go on tennisplayer...I am always happy to put forward my students for analysis. Brian Gordon helped me with this guy a while back and he's coming along nicely.

I did do some slow motion shots but they came out poorly as they were taken under floodlights. I can do some slomo over the next day or two, however.

History

He had a dropped elbow and poor leg drive at one point and I've worked hard to eradicate these issues. Working on the dropped elbow was something he found difficult. I had to start him with the racket behind his head in the loaded position to get him familiar with where his elbow should be in order for it to line up with his shoulders.

When he then moved on to the full swing he started to "bowl" the arm rather than move in a "throwing action" I still don't think his elbow quite breaks enough into the throwing action as perhaps it could.

The Boy

Talented, very talented. He is 14 but weighs a mere 50 kilos. He is self-conscious and dislikes the camera and is somewhat reluctant to be filmed. Consequently, these aren't his best serves but they show pretty much everything about his action, which is all us coaches need to see.

He has great timing which helps. We need more power in that serve as he moves into the U16 events.

The Coach

That's me! I am not dissatisfied with the work I've done on his serve but as we all know, there's always room for improvement. Please feel free anyone to chip in with suggestions. I shudder to think what the worldsbestcoach will think and will await his verdict with eager anticipation. Don_Budge, tennis_chiro's comments are also eagerly awaited…and 10's player if he's floating around...and anyone, anyone who is skilled at developing serves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPRgAW3lf4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEEoN2m-BJk

[GeoffWilliams]

Not bad. Needs to coil his shoulders more to the back fence. More load. Arm speed is low. No kick back on rear leg. Big lunge forward leaves him vulnerable to deep returns as his balance seems off a bit.

[chuck62]

Not bad

Stotty, Congrats on giving him a solid serving foundation. The toss and contact point look good. I agree, if he could just loosen that arm up a little bit and have a better drop and more of a throwing action he would have an excellent serve. Are there any drills you have used with him to get him to loosen his grip and keep it loose throughout the swing ? Isn't there a drill where you hit the ball with a knotted towel ? Other than that it looks pretty good to me.

[bottle]

~

Racket tip gets low. That's really good. ESPECIALLY if he's not bending his arm as much as he might.

I had a serve once where my arm never squeezed more than to a right angle.
One of my opponents was very impressed. But I wasn't, and I changed it. There was some power but not good upward spin.

I don't pretend to know everything about this subject, but I seem to recall old picture sequences of Dick Savitt and Ellsworth Vines where arm never progresses beyond a right angle and yet the racket tip points all the way to the court or maybe to the Andromeda Galaxy.

Same thing with an old photo of Pancho Gonzalez when he was young.

If a person can get racket perpendicular to the court without bending arm together as much as Ivan Lendl (who was the expert after all who prescribed "squeezing the two halves of the arm together so they touch" in his otherwise not so good book HITTING HOT-- but his other book with Eugene Scott was very good), he can maybe build up speed before contact even more from upper arm rotation than arm extension? Or let arm extension be totally loose and passive rather than from triceps muscle?

For us less flexible ones the arm rotation may just take racket sideways off of contact hopefully in a somewhat upward direction?

But someone with great flexibility in the rotors has the option of bending arm to the max, too. Maybe he'll end up like Chuck McKinley in mid twentieth century with "pro-drop" racket looking like a helicopter blade pointing at middle or top of right fence.

I have no way of knowing precisely how McKinley totally wrecked his arm and ended his career (while serving and I don't mean in the Army), but on the other hand I've distrusted most doomsday scenarios ever since the WMD scam.

So bending the arm more might produce a great result. But the kid is fortunate enough to be your student and not mine so good luck!

[stotty]

My thoughts

I understand the idea of dropping the racket to commence the action...and also the take aim issue. He does actually take aim when not being filmed.

The key things for me are:

1. Should his throwing action be a little more pronounced?

2. Should he slow down or even pause in the trophy position, to store up elastic energy? A lot of players do this to good effect, Federer being one.

Although his action is quite good now, there are things to ponder and possibly develop. Weight transfer is obviously a key issue.

Personally, I'm a Stich fan when it comes to serving.

http://youtu.be/cf2vjXP_cHg?t=35s

[stotty]

OK...let's make this kid a work-in-progress.

Since the last time I posted a thread on this kid, things have improved quite a bit. The dropped elbow and timing of the leg drive are sorted and it's time to move on.

Now, does his elbow break quite enough? Looking in the stroke archive, some players seem to have a more pronounced break in the elbow than others. Ferrero seems to have less of a break than most, but's it's still more than the kid in the clip. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

I will post more clips this week...let's see how Don_Budge's suggestions play out. Weight transfer is a key issue. He hates doing it...says he feels off balance when he rocks back...doesn't like dropping the racket head to initiate the backswing. This is nothing new...anything that feels unfamiliar he doesn't like. But it's early days...let's persevere and see how things look at the end of the week.



[ATTACH]450[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]451[/ATTACH]

[bottle]

~

Very good discussion per usual. The golf speak about turning in a barrel comes via David Ledbetter from the old Scotch teaching pro Percy Boomer, brother of the great champion Aubrey Boomer. Think Lloyd and Donald Budge in tennis.

The arm bend speak with still photographs is fascinating after we've just been watching Stotty's huge silken videos of Edberg and Stich. (Yes, I do have a big screen given to me by my photographer-sister who was moving on to something else.)

In the windup, Edberg certainly keeps his arm straight for longer and then doesn't bend as much. And Stich bends more than anybody? I'm talking about arm near or after "trophy position." If Stotty's student bends in the photo more than to a right angle, maybe 95 or 100 degrees, then Stich bends maybe to 80 or 75 degrees? Or am I hallucinating that? It's possible.

What I see is a snaky coiling at the top of Stich's backswing, and it's entirely organic, with an easy strangeness all of its own. Whether Stich serves from the true trophotropic doesn't matter. The dear departed Nabrug would say Stich's arm bend is personal mannerism not to be imitated.

I miss Nabrug so much.

If he said that, then I could say, "Sure, it's personal characteristic. But it IS something to try if suddenly you're going to serve 35 mph faster!"

Do I really think that will happen for me? No. But we here in the U.S. have the example of big league pitching in baseball, so similar to great serving in tennis.

And each pitcher has a hundred tics. Steal the right one and...

But I am self-interested. As the best teaching pros like you guys are trying to lead your students to be. But they are much younger and therefore have a better chance for substantial improvement if they will only fool around within the enabling limits of developed discipline.

[stotty]

Arm bend

Thanks for your input, bottle.

Yes, the angle of the arm bend does seem to vary amongst pros to some extent. I have been wading thru the stroke archive trying to freeze clips at the critical point in order to see the angle of the upper and lower arm. Differences don't seem to be massive but there are certainly variations there. I'm just trying to relate it to the style of swing (if there is any relation at all) in order to help my player, but there seems to be no clues here either, as abbreviated serves and classic serves seem to have variations with themselves.

I was looking at Wayne Ferreira serving on youtube...his lower and upper arm are at 90 degrees...from what I could tell...not the best place to study clips is youtube....most pros bend slightly more than this in the archive.

Think I'll try Chuck's wet towel trick tomorrow. Like you say, bottle, try things and see...might suddenly go a lot quicker.

Don_Budge is dead right about some students being reluctant to take on new techniques. Some kids just want to stay in their comfort zone. The worst ones are those who don't want to think...don't want to make the mental effort when practicing...happy to work physically but don't want to concentrate for the longs periods of time that it can take to make technical advances. The kid in question, thankfully, isn't like that - he just fears a drop in form while he battles with the unfamiliar stroke he is trying to adopt.

[stotty]

Ok, I wasn't going to work on his serve until tomorrow...but he was at the club when i was packing up so I just had to give DB's suggestions a go.

In the clip, you'll see he now has the racket pointing more in front and in a more raised position before commencing to serve. He has more of a rocking motion to facilitate weight transfer. I tried hard to get him to initiate the backswing by "dropping" the head of the racket. I think it worked.

To me it looks better. He mis-timed the ball a lot and hit the ball at varying heights until he finally got used to re-synching everything. Does he like it? Kind of...he became more comfortable with the idea toward the end of the 45 minute session...until then he was most reluctant. I showed him Michael Stich's serve before the session, which he fell in love with...and which is going to help...he likes to look good...he'd love a serve that "looks" like Stich's.

Anyway, at the end of a 45 minute session, this is end result....take a look...comments welcome

http://youtu.be/LeG0grNzmUk

http://youtu.be/H0Vzh0sQ-pM

[stotty]

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things

[10splayer]

Any particular reason you're not getting him to kick back? Personally, I don't see the elbow angle as a problem, nearly as much as an overall lack of forward angular momentum.

[tennis_chiro]

The rock is the key

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things

Dammit! I just lost about an hour post. Hit the x instead of the button! So this will be very brief.

Two keys:
first: the weight transfer in the Stich serve goes only back to 50/50. This is critical. He BOUNCES off the right foot. Hands down/weight back; then hands up/weight forward. Difficult to learn at first, but then it is the best. I've been teaching this rhythm and making films of it for 40 years. Unfortunately, I don't have the films, but I do have the experience.

second: the toss needs to be automatic. If the hands start too low, there is not enough help from gravity and more importantly, the action is a deliberate one. Let the hands swing a little more. G's arm position looks fine (better than Berdych!!). But he looks too deliberate on the initiation of the toss before the hand starts to go up. I would really try to get him to hit 2 dozen serves starting the hands a little higher and bouncing off the right foot. One trick is to simply place a ball under the right heel.

here are some videos:
Don's Fig8 and Practice Toss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wkhxlMD-0o

Don's Serve 1985

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalTennisDC#p/u/5/Tmoqsgiag3g

not exactly right,but really only back to 50/50

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

In the words of D_B, the model is Smith or maybe Newcombe.

This guy is also a pretty good model except that his toss hand goes a little too far behind the baseline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JulFZOAYvZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fUlXHdTx4

check these:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/mario_ancic/ma_serve/ma_1st_serve/ma_1st_serve.html?MA1stSDeuceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/timhenman/th_serve/th_1st_serve/th_1st_serve.html?TH1stSDeuceSide1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/max_mirnyi/mm_serve/mm_1st_serve/mm_1st_serve.html?MM1stSDeuceSide1.mov

But it looks like you are really on the right track!
Good luck.
don

[stotty]

Don,I write posts in a text editor first then cut and paste them into the forum...learnt my lesson long ago.

Thanks for the guidance, don. Not too sure what you mean by "bounces" off the right foot, referring to Stich.

I got another chance to work with G today, but before reading your post. I will go thru all the clips you sent with interest and work on the stuff you say. I think the work I have done so far with DB's help is very much along the same lines as yourself.

Don_Budge's suggestions seem to be working well and are simple to implement. Shame it was a drizzly day (I work outdoors), preventing me from filming. G really got the hang of the weight transfer today and was timing the "when to move forward" part really well. After 40 minutes, the serve was moving significantly quicker, and looked far better. I also worked quite a lot with him trying to get the racket head to drop gracefully to commence to action...worked really well...not quite like Stich or Pancho yet but give it time.

I'll have some clips up by the weekend, with luck!

[stotty]

Any particular reason you're not getting him to kick back? Personally, I don't see the elbow angle as a problem, nearly as much as an overall lack of forward angular momentum.

Lack of kick back was something Geoff noticed, too. This is because of two reasons:

1. He isn't serving at full pelt.

2 His ball toss always goes to the left. You can see this in the clip showing his action from the rear... in the first post of this thread. He falls off to the left after finishing the serve. This prevents kick back because he is fighting for balance...and as you can see it often produces a serve that goes wide...never down the middle. If he gets a straight throw he does kick back, you'll get to see it in subsequent clips.

He is self-concious when being filmed and it plays havoc with his ball toss. God knows what it would be like in front of a crowd of 20,000!

[julian1]

Some related issues

I'll keep going with the new service set up. Let's give it until the weekend. By then he will have served around 2000 balls and we can see how things look.

His timing is out at the moment with rocking back and then forward again, but he'll get thru that. Once he sees success and gains confidence I know he will want keep going with it. After seeing Michael Stich, he'll do anything for a serve that looks as lovely as that! Idols are always good carrots.

Changing subject…well kind of...

This arm bend thing has been preoccupying me for some time now. How much should the arm break at the elbow when in the trophy position and do more pronounced "bends" have any connection to the serving style of a player?

Anyway, I decided to email Mark over at Revolutionary Tennis to see what he had to say. Needless to say I got a thought-provoking reply.

Mark thinks it might be more important to consider the degree of break/elbow bend at the slightly later stage in the swing; at the point where the forearm swings away from the trophy position just prior to the so-called back scratch position; where the elbow-break seems to increase slightly compared to the trophy position. Of course, the arm is coming into a horizontal position at this point… so to see the true extent of the bend angle you would need an ariel view. It would be interesting to see how world-class serves look from an ariel view, wouldn't it?

Another thing Mark says is that (apparently, the same is true when viewing clips of pitchers throwing) the elbow-break will look more or less pronounced depending on the angle the server is viewed from. Go thru that stroke archive and pick out clips of Federer serving, then freeze the clips as he eases into the trophy position. The angle of his elbow break will look different in different clips depending on the angle clip was shot from. The trophy position viewed from the side at court level is a convenient reference point, but is it all that telling? Elbow bend certainly varies somewhat between tour players…but maybe there would be less variation with snapshots viewed from a somewhat less convenient reference point, the reference point prior to the racket drop and upswing? Be interesting to find out.

Viewing players from above when they play might bring a whole new geometry to the way we look at things

Please see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBBO1YAWuiw&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbLjGVd0xRs&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLf_MJXzBVg&feature=related