Nadal's Serve...

[don_budge]

From the TPA tennis website...

http://tpatennis.net/the-truth-behind-nadals-improved-serve-it-wasnt-just-a-grip-change/

If I was Oscar...I would have to insist to Uncle Toni to take a seat somewhere out of the way. Could Uncle Toni be part of the problem? It is entirely possible that he has outlived his usefulness...at least in the role of coach.

[tpatennis]

From the TPA tennis website...

http://tpatennis.net/the-truth-behind-nadals-improved-serve-it-wasnt-just-a-grip-change/

If I was Oscar...I would have to insist to Uncle Toni to take a seat somewhere out of the way. Could Uncle Toni be part of the problem? It is entirely possible that he has outlived his usefulness...at least in the role of coach.

Thanks for putting this up on this forum. What a shame that Uncle Toni is getting in the way of Nadal's progress, like many parents do. Losing 19mph on your first serve is no joke. If I gain 19mph tomorrow Wimbledon here I come.

Tom

[stotty]

i don't think Toni has got in the way. Everything was going fine...something just turned up and put the spanner in the works...Djokovic

And Toni's not above seeking someone else's help...that's got to be a good sign in a man. You can't know everything about this game...it's a complicated business.

[10splayer]

Me thinks Nadal needs Worldsbestcoach.

[don_budge]

Tommy...The Who and the other Oscar

Thanks for putting this up on this forum. What a shame that Uncle Toni is getting in the way of Nadal's progress, like many parents do. Losing 19mph on your first serve is no joke. If I gain 19mph tomorrow Wimbledon here I come.

Tom

http://tpatennis.net/the-truth-behind-nadals-improved-serve-it-wasnt-just-a-grip-change/

Thanks to you Tommy Allsopp...and your "super" website.

Let me just summarize here this dandy of a scoop. Tom told me this little story some time back and promised that he had something coming down the pipe. The whole story with it's innuendo's and implications provides us with an inside look into the upper echelon of tennis and the ego's involved. Plus there is a golden opportunity for us armchair quarterbacks to play Sherlock Holmes. Thanks again, Tommy.

The steps Oscar Borras took to teach Rafael the serve by Christophe Delavaut, Vera Beach Tennis Club Tennis Professional


Step 1...Throwing a tennis ball for distance.

Step 2...Identifying the problem. Biggest flaw arm too far away from body. Wrist in weak position.

Step 3...Setting the wrist in the proper position.

Step 4...Practicing half serves from the trophy/pause position.

Step 5...Practicing from the service line. More power with minimum effort.

Step 6...Getting the tossing arm in proper position. Toss the ball in the court as if to serve and volley.

Step 7...Rhythm of the footwork. The old motion does not allow him to get in position.

The author of the video cites a number of things that he finds interesting and he includes Rafael’s willingness to learn and the dynamics between Rafael, Uncle Toni and Oscar. Oscar must not only prove out his theories and modifications to Nadal himself but to Uncle Toni as well. At one point we can see Uncle Toni practicing the trophy position that Oscar is advocating behind the baseline. Delavaut mentions that here we have an example of a great athlete working with a great coach.

In conclusion he says that the the right way to do things is the easy way. Serve well...play well. Good serving breeds confidence. He concludes that at the end of the day the Nadal's were happy.


But you didn't think the old Spin Doctor was done here, did you?

[julian1]

A video of Nadal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GljqJv84tTI#

I understand we are talking about a video imbedded in a link above
i.e a video inside of a video
A tape imbedded shows basically Nadal taking tennis lessons
A part around 06:57 is probably the most important part
A lot of kicking open doors IMHO

[don_budge]

From GOAT to...taking lessons

Thanks again Tommy for this little pearl. This is really quite an interesting story and the video camera does what it does best...it provides evidence. Just ask Rodney King.

Even though we are provided with this remarkable piece of video work there is a lot to be interpreted. I wrote the summary of what happened as the narrator interpreted the "evidence" and in my examination of the evidence, I came up with some different possibilities as to the conclusions.

Just playing a bit of Sherlock Holmes here...trying to decipher the "spin". You have undoubtably heard of WMD's or weapons of mass destruction. The internet along with its accomplice video has created the other WMD...weapon of mass deception. My mother always told me to not believe everything you hear and only half of what you see. Hmmm....

Step 1...Throwing the tennis ball for distance because the tennis serve motion is similar to the throwing motion. Watching Nadal throw the tennis ball made me cringe just a bit. The reason being because number one...throwing such a light ball at such a force is not such a good idea. Because his throwing motion is a bit suspect there existed the possibility of doing some damage to his "multi million dollar" arm. Granted the possibility may be slim, but nevertheless...I wouldn't have taken the chance. Number two, throwing such a light weight object is not necessarily simulating the use of the tennis racquet which is of course, significantly heavier. Perhaps throwing an actual tennis racquet might be more beneficial...what the hell, he's a rich guy, he could afford to knock about a couple of old racquets. chockomashi...suggested throwing a football in one of his more brilliant posts...in one of his more lucid moments. Number three, I question how relevant it is to use the throwing motion as a method for teaching the serve anyways. The best part of my game is my serve which I hit left handed and I throw naturally right handed. When I try to throw left handed my motion is like a girl's...just terrible. On the other hand, I used to be a pitcher in baseball and had some pretty good stuff right handed...but I can't manage the feeblest of serves.

Step 2 and Step 3...Oscar, according to the narrator, has identified Nadal's problems with his serve to be "the biggest flaw is the arm is too far away from the body" and "the wrist in a weak position". He concludes that the fix is to get the wrist in the right position. While I somewhat agree with his identification of his problems and the fix, I think that the overall picture of the Nadal serve is much worse than his observations.

Nadal's problem is simply put...he is not in position to go after the ball when he tosses it up to serve. The reason he is not in position is because his backswing is really homemade and flawed. He is so far away from a classical free and swinging backswing in the Richard Gonzales mode of service technique that any of the fixes that Oscar will attempt to implement will be strictly temporary and will not in the end have any meaningful permanent impact on the Nadal serve. Until the backswing is remedied he will spend a lot of time trying to fix this and fix that, but he will never get to the source of the issues. This is why he slipped back into his old serve...in the end the fixes were not fixes at all.

Step 4 and Step 5...Practicing half serves from the trophy/pause position and practicing from the service line. Great training exercises but nothing that will have an impact on the Nadalian serve without fixing the problem.

Step 6...Nadal will naturally throw the ball into a position where he is most comfortable hitting it and with his flawed motion this is where his toss has "naturally" gravitated to, which is another clue as to just how flawed his motion is.

Step 7..."The old motion does not allow him to get in position"...perhaps the most intelligent observation of the narrator in the whole piece.

In the narrative the author is citing a couple of interesting dynamics which I find interesting too. And they raise a number of questions in me. He says that it is interesting that Nadal has a willingness to learn...I find this to be a bit baffling...why wouldn't he be interested in learning and improving? I also think that this "willingness to learn" is an indication that he is sensing that he has some rather obvious shortcomings in his service motion and it is going to end up costing him mucho dinero. Another thing the author observes is that Oscar not only has to prove out his theories with Nadal but they also have to fly with Uncle Toni. This I would never do...and not for anyone. I don't allow the parents to be on the court with me and the student...if anyone is on the court it is going to interfere with the process which is difficult as it is. Even in normal conversations two people have a difficult enough time understanding each other but when you have a third party come in...SNAFU (situation normal all fucked up). That's a WWII acronym. At one point you see Uncle Toni practicing behind the baseline the trophy position that Oscar is advocating. This kind of background motion is very distracting...not only to the student but to the teacher. Distracting the coach is a real "no no" in my book...it shows a lack of respect. Delavaut mentions that this is an example of a great athlete working with a great coach. I am not so sure.

The author Delavaut concludes that at the end of the day the Nadal's are all happy and feeling good. They are warm and fuzzy. My conclusion is that there was very little of substance accomplished but they are just happy to have gone through the motions. The problems that I detect would take another post of at least the same length to begin to reach my conclusion. Probably more like two or three. I have also concluded a couple of other things about the modern game of celebrity tennis that I think that I will save for another day. This little post is probably difficult enough to digest as it is. Afterall...who am I to criticize in this manner? Who do I think I am?

It's just possible that worldsbestcoach may not be so far from the truth that everyone is so anxious to paint him up to be. For the world's number one player to have reached the pinnacle of success with such a technically flawed serve is a rather troubling picture. And there are those I am sure that would like to paint me as a heretic...but the troubling thing is, by now you are beginning to see there is truth in what I write. In spite of the WMD...weapon of mass deception.

[tennis_chiro]

Check post #12 in the link below

Thanks again Tommy for this little pearl. This is really quite an interesting story ...

Nadal's problem is simply put...he is not in position to go after the ball when he tosses it up to serve. The reason he is not in position is because his backswing is really homemade and flawed. He is so far away from a classical free and swinging backswing in the Richard Gonzales mode of service technique that any of the fixes that Oscar will attempt to implement will be strictly temporary and will not in the end have any meaningful permanent impact on the Nadal serve. Until the backswing is remedied he will spend a lot of time trying to fix this and fix that, but he will never get to the source of the issues. This is why he slipped back into his old serve...in the end the fixes were not fixes at all.
...

I think that Rafa's serve during the 2010 US Open was a lot closer to Gonzales's motion than you think. Certainly a lot different from what he did this year. We need a flip of a slow motion of Rafa's serve at that time, but he had an abbreviated backswing ala Gonzales, a good rhythmic rock and got into a pretty good trophy position.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1777&page=2

Also, my reality is that I often have to train the parent as well as the kid because the parent may very well be practicing with and probably supervising the kid as he is practicing his serve. Everything you say about distraction is true, but I have to co-opt the parent to help me keep the kid traveling towards the right destination. If I were to shut the parents out, I would lose half of my meager stable of students.

don

[julian1]

For Don-up contact on a serve vs down contact on a serve

up contact vs down contact is discussed
at

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=1963

post #2

[bman]

My first thought was that this guy is not on board with John Yandell. John always preaches the long, circular backswing for a better racket drop. Oscar is telling Nadal that the main problem is that his backswing is too big.

[johnyandell]

Haven't met the gentleman, and certainly, there are plenty of people not on board with me, and who haven't even heard of me to know if they are or not...

My view is that a lot of backswings will work. I like more circular when there is a problem with the racket drop, but I tend to agree Nadal's arm was too straight at too high a point.

[don_budge]

Gonzales and Nadal...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI

Here are a couple of different views of the Richard Gonzales serve. Notice any differences? There were some subtle changes, weren't there? Or, were there not? But in both of these looks...Gonzales does do a bit of a drop with the racquet head which creates a "lifting" motion in the bottom of his backswing. By lifting his racquet up in his backswing he slows down his swing which gives him the opportunity to allow the racquet head to "drop" or "fall" behind him when gravity dictates that it is time for it to fall. And then he is into a nice big rhythmic loop behind his back and he is accelerating the racquet head as he comes out of the loop...then he strikes like a whip or a cobra. The Gonzales abbreviation is not the same as the Nadal abbreviation...although one could certainly point out certain similarities from the still shots in Phil's post. It's quite a different story when the thing gets "rolling".

This is one of the elements that is missing from Nadal's serve and this prevents him from "whipping" the ball as opposed to "hitting" it. The smooth whipping element is the key. This is the part of the swing that allows for variety of spin, improved placement, deception and more sophisticated tactics. Nadal's backswing will not allow for this.

The speed and the mph aspect of serving is overrated to an extent. It's the variety of deliveries that is the hallmark of a great server...like a Gonzales. Nadal would stand a much better chance against his nemesis if he developed more of a serving instinct...along with an improved motion.

For instance, to the advantage court he should be able to execute these left handed bread and butter tactics:

1. Slice deep into the backhand, with medium spin and big speed

2. Slice shallower in the box, up the line and therefore wider off the court, with more spin and less speed

3. Hit flat with deadly accuracy up the middle for aces

4. Hit a terrific kick up the middle away from the opponents forehand

5. Slice into the body of his opponent

6. Kick into the body of his opponent

Here are six deliveries that can be used like a baseball pitcher (server) to set up the batter (receiver) and keep him off balance. Out and away...up and in. Off speed now...then the smoke. This is just the beginning...and I don't see that element in his serving game. The big reason is he does not have the motion necessary to do all these things...his motion won't accommodate such variety. And then there is Uncle Toni.

[bottle]

This nails it, as far as I am concerned.

Nadal's serve, no doubt originally patterned on the Richard Gonzalez serve, contains the seemingly superficial difference that there's no down-and-up in the basically horizontal take around.

But if one views a big sampling of Nadal's serve in the archive, one will see some variation in takeback.

Often, Rafa goes up and over like a turtle shell-- an abbreviated motion still mechanistic and tough to time, I think, taking into consideration Steve's specific explanation of the alternative's advantage.

Just that we see variations at all may indicate Rafa's or Toni's dissatisfaction with what Rafa was originally given and how it worked out.

Me, I wouldn't be more than intellectually interested if I hadn't served both ways in my life-- 1) down and up with racket and 2) around with the racket.

The trouble with the human mind is that it so easily gets overly conceptual. The dumb left brain dominated and excessively logical mind thinks, "I either got to swing down and up or around."

But Steve's suggesting a bit of both. This is an avenue to explore. I don't anticipate giving up the down and up I now like so much and have been myelinating, but what if I wanted to keep same toss but change overall timing just a bit (in quest of a sudden ace)?

A person who had served both ways, 1) down and up and 2) around, would be an idiot not to try the Gonzalez compromise at least once.

[llll]

fyi
there is a lawsuit going on between the nadals and borras
rafa says the only thing borras did was waste an hour of my time

[don_budge]

Nadal...at Shanghai and Tokyo

Nadal vs. Murray Tokyo- Murray has quite a nice backswing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5BSkVlcurw&feature=related

Nadal vs. Mayer Shanghai- The Florian Mayer backswing is delightfully "quirky" to say the least (as bottle would say). His whole game has it's share of quirks. I just love his reaction when he wins match point. Viva la quirk!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQfQLALFPeM&feature=related