The Modern Pro Slice: Spin Levels

[johnyandell]

Love to hear what people thought about The Modern Pro Slice: Spin Levels

John Yandell

[mlogarzo]

Hi John,

You may not remember me, I'm the Aussie who worked with Chris Lewit in NY and you taped my kick serve for the article.

Always enjoy reading an article on slice backhands.

Personally, i think that more spin, doesn't necessarily mean a better slice. I'm more the Rosewall mould whereby the ball stays low and shoots through with less spin on the ball. I hit mine and have always taught my students, to hit through the line of the ball with a longer follow through rather than the chop down method you find in so many of the current players eg Federer, Djokovic, Nadal.

The effectiveness of the heavily spun ball nowadays stems from the fact that the pace of the ball is considerably slowed and it's this change of pace that players find difficult. A classic example is a player like Tomic, with his unorthodox style and pace changes and spins that players struggle with. Players have become so programmed and repetitious with the same style and balls hit, that anything different can be highly effective.

Like with everything, i think that it will turn and we will see more players revert to a slice with less spin and more penetration. As i think we will see more players begin to use the serve and volley again.

I was taught to have both the offensive (T shaped technique) and defensive slices (U shaped technique), but also be able to improvise with inside out and those shorter slices ala Federer. In this case is a dying ball more effective than one that stays lower through, who knows?

Personally, my slice has far and away been my best shot and whenever i get into a slice rally, my eyes light up. (Shame it doesn't also happen with rest of game otherwise i'd probably still toughing out on the Pro Tour).

So for me, im an advocate for a little less spin and staying low.

[johnyandell]

I remember! Your serves still grace Tplayer! And yeah that's the question--is there a variation that would be different and differently effective... I tend to agree with you at least at my level...bear with me as we work through all this.

[llll]

with the increased downward racquet path of the pro slice today
it does not surprise me that the increase in spin is greater on a percentage basis than in the past and more than a forehand in absolute terms
a slice responce to an incoming topspin continues (adds) the spin on the ball while redirecting its line of flight
so if you are swinging more down and not thru the ball
you will be adding more spin respectively
(more brush=more spin)
djokovic who hits alittle more thru the ball gets less increase in spin
SO
the extreme high to low of the "modern slice"
generating the most spin in absolute and percentage categories doesnt surprise me

[privas]

Why more spin?

I love the numbers. Perhaps you will address in the future: why more spin? Perhaps... 1. Higher topspin groundstrokes as the "input function." 2. String or racquet technology evolution. (how much can Fed generate with VS gut on a Dunlop Maxply?) 3. Slower slam surfaces. 4. A new stroke technique. 5. The weight of the racquet.

I love the slice backhand, but as one who never developed an effective backhand drive, I see using it as a sign of weakness...to my detriment. On the clay, I find that adding poly on the cross strings to gut on the mains, like Federer, helps me hit a heavier slice. Also, Federer and Nadal both use very heavy customized racquets, which perhaps enhances the role of gravity in the "high to low" motion.

Pedro

[bottle]

Yeah I think it's gravity, but the body also is stronger chopping down. I say that from 20 years of splitting wood. (We lived on a heavily forested mountain and heated solely by wood.)

Chopping down is a powerful move. Chopping level is powerful still. But chopping up at a branch above you? Pretty tough.

I'm thinking one or two arms in all three cases.

[tennis_chiro]

The INCREASE in Spin

with the increased downward racquet path of the pro slice today
it does not surprise me that the increase in spin is greater on a percentage basis than in the past and more than a forehand in absolute terms
a slice responce to an incoming topspin continues (adds) the spin on the ball while redirecting its line of flight

The increase in spin may be greater than in the past, but I doubt that the increase in spin relative to a forehand is really greater in either an absolute or percentage measure. A maximum backspin of +5000 rpm sounds like a lot, but it is really only an addition of 2000 rpm on a ball that may have already been spinning at over 3000 rpm after the bounce. But for that same ball to be sent back with +3000 rpm on a topspin forehand, the change in spin would be over 6000 rpm. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I don't think that would be that unusual for a heavy forehand from any of today's players with heavy topspin, much less Nadal. On the other hand, the +5000 rpm slice backhand was a bit of an anomaly.

Now someone else can get into some highly technical discussion of how much the ball is actually "spinning" on the strings when the spin is being changed from topspin in one direction to topspin back in the other direction, but that whole section of Cross and Lindsey kind of makes my head hurt.

But let's not get carried away with the idea that there is more spin on a backhand slice than a topspin forehand or serve.

don

[johnyandell]

Uh, but there is!

[tennis_chiro]

What if

Uh, but there is!

So what happens if Nadal hits one of those heavy topspin strokes on a ball that comes into him with that 5000 rpm underspin which would be reduced significantly by the bounce to maybe 2500? Could Nadal then get that up to a significantly higher spin rate?

don

[johnyandell]

I have to check my notes which aren't here, but yeah probably. Most of the balls coming off the court were spinning with over 5000rpm of topspin. I'll look for some that had underspin on the way into the bounce.

[stotty]

A maximum backspin of +5000 rpm sounds like a lot, but it is really only an addition of 2000 rpm on a ball that may have already been spinning at over 3000 rpm after the bounce.
don

I'm getting confused here...doesn't slice check and turn to topspin once it hits the ground.

[julian1]

Cross and Lindsey

The increase in spin may be greater than in the past, but I doubt that the increase in spin relative to a forehand is really greater in either an absolute or percentage measure. A maximum backspin of +5000 rpm sounds like a lot, but it is really only an addition of 2000 rpm on a ball that may have already been spinning at over 3000 rpm after the bounce. But for that same ball to be sent back with +3000 rpm on a topspin forehand, the change in spin would be over 6000 rpm. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I don't think that would be that unusual for a heavy forehand from any of today's players with heavy topspin, much less Nadal. On the other hand, the +5000 rpm slice backhand was a bit of an anomaly.

Now someone else can get into some highly technical discussion of how much the ball is actually "spinning" on the strings when the spin is being changed from topspin in one direction to topspin back in the other direction, but that whole section of Cross and Lindsey kind of makes my head hurt.

But let's not get carried away with the idea that there is more spin on a backhand slice than a topspin forehand or serve.

don

Don,
please provide questions,if any, about the above mentioned section
of Cross and Lindsey,
regards,
Julian

[tennis_chiro]

I think it is all relative

I'm getting confused here...doesn't slice check and turn to topspin once it hits the ground.

This is where the Cross and Lindsey stuff gets a little confusing for me. IN THE MOMENT when the ball is touching the ground and turning, it is not sliding. (Sorry, Julian. I don't have the book handy right now, but I know I really struggled trying to understand exactly what was going on there.) I can't quite get my head around it. But I think a 5000 RPM slice goes into the ground and loses most of its underspin, but not all of it; the ground should change it by about 3000 RPM. But that would leave it still with underspin. That's what I was suggesting to JY. That 5000 RPM slice will hit the opponents racket spinning with about 2000 RPM on backspin which is a headstart on the topspin going in the other direction; just as an incoming topspin shot is a headstart on spin for an outgoing slice. And I am assuming that is how the 5000 RPM slice was accomplished.

But yes, as JY pointed out, there still is that tremendous amount of absolute rotation on the slice. I was just wondering if there shouldn't be a corresponding immense amount of spin on the topspin return of a slice; but only if the incoming ball started with an awful lot of spin.

don

[johnyandell]

Definitely slice turns to topspin at the bounce.

What Don is refering to is the fact that the ball is rotating in the same direction coming as it does going out with slice.

The interesting question though is what happens on the strings--and that so far as I know hasn't been studied--10,000 frames a second would be nice...

I doubt though that the ball continues to spin on the strings. It probably slows down and stops. The question is how much energy does it take to generate that 3500rpm of underspin versus say 2700rpm of topspin.

Howard Brody once wrote it takes only half as much racket speed to hit a slice groundstroke compared to topspin, but that seems too strong.

One factor that I am going to look at is the angle of the swing plane and make some primitive measurements. For now all I am saying is that there is a hell of a lot of spin on those slices. And I find the values somewhat surprising.

[GeoffWilliams]

It would be interesting to test spin strings, and see if the same player produces more spin with one over the other, and with slice over top. Take the five top spin strings: barb wire, spiky shark, blue gear, ashway kevlar, ace 18g, and string them in the same frame/s, same mass, same balance, etc. Same for flat strings: vs team, poly star energy, polyfibre tech, alu power, lux big banger original, big hitter blue rough, and test those for total power: rpm x velocity, before and after the bounce, on all three surfaces, and now that would be an article worth reading! Would also be interesting to change the mass and nothing else, say, from 338g-360g, the common pro range from Nadal to Djokovic.