A comparison of Federer, Djokovic, and Nadal racquet frames. ( And a recom. for Murr

[GeoffWilliams]

Comparison of Federer Djokovic Nadal racquets.

For pics: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...fabfed&page=17

Federer: 90 sq. in.

Joker: 98 sq. in.

Nadal: 100 sq in.

Total mass:
Federer: 357g-364 depending on surface, foe, etc.

Joker: 359-361g according to Greg Raven.

Nadal: 334-336g according to Greg Raven.

Swing wt.:
Federer: 338 according to Greg Raven but I think it's more like 355g with all that lead under the grommets.


Joker: 371

Nadal: 355 according to Greg Raven.

RA:

Federer: 65

Joker: 51 according to Greg Raven but I think it's more like 62- 65 like the h22 he used to use.

Nadal: 65 with the apd original, the one he uses.

Lay up:

Federer: similar to stock, with higher quality material. ( He used to have a more open drill pattern with the ncode, at 9 crosses rather than 10 in sweet spot area, but has the same pattern as stock now.)

Joker: custom, head lay up no one can buy.

Nadal: original apd lay up with lead under the grommet at 12 and under the butt.

Tension:

Federer: 48.5/45.7lbs vs team/alu

Joker: 61/59lbs vs team/alu

Nadal: used to use duralast for ten years, now uses RPM at 54/52lbs.

Feel of the sticks:

Federer: like a muted stone, with high power in the small sweet spot and iffy outside of it.

Joker: depends on if his RA is 51 or 62-65 like the h22 he used to use. Rock like power and control.


Nadal: stiff, light, head heavy, with a soft thud on the RPM, lots of spin, tough to serve and get power flat wise.

Grip size:



Federer: L3 with over grip

Joker: L3 with two over grips

Nadal: L2 with over grip.

Set up for their game:


Federer: demanding sweet spot with lots of power, smaller head size makes his 16 x 19 more like an 18 x 20.

Joker: 18 x 20, Perfect for his game, flat out power, great control, higher tension yet softer on the cross for more snap back control, more lead than the others on the inside of the frame, going down to below the last cross by about an inch or so.


Nadal: Total spin set up, 16 x 19 with a spin string, small grip for more torque and quicker rotation, stiff RA for power, head heavy for spin.

Moment of inertia for each:

20.33 for Nadal
20.65 for Fed
21 for Joker, giving him more plow through, but tougher to get moving, more depth, but more risk of going long by an inch.


Similarities: I think all three are at an RA of about 65, including Joker, who is listed at 51. I think all three sw are close, except joker is a little higher, with more lead than the others. So if all three are at 65 Ra, and all three are sw at 355g-371, that should tell us something. A high sw, and a high RA, allow for more power/plow through on shots. Fed's lower tension on a smaller head size gives the same snap back as Joker at 61/59lbs. Rafa has more snap back at 54/52lbs, in a 100 sq. in. apd frame, which would provide more spin. The lower snap back of Fed and Joker, in a tighter pattern, give them more depth/flatter trajectory and deeper landing shots than Rafa given the same force vectors applied to the bed. The vs team/alu combo, also gives more power than the rpm, which is a spin string, not a power string, and feels soft and thud like, not crisp and powerful as vs/alu feels, with RPMs hexagonal shape. Fed and Joker have power flat type set ups, and Rafa is all spin. But we already knew that by watching their games! Also the RA increases after the frames are strung, so their strung RAs are really about 2-3 points higher at 67-68 RA. That's a lot of pop for big hitters to control. Notice Murray at about 60-63 RA with his pt57A 16 x 19 alu/vs combo, strung at 62/61lbs, lighter mass at 347g, (he was at 364g but hurt his wrist) and his less powerful shots, with his more flexible frame and less powerful hybrid set up, as gut as cross is far less powerful than gut as main. (Hey, Murray, add the lead back on, switch the vs to the mains, and get a frame with an RA of 65, and talk to me about how much you like it. If you want to run with the big boys, you have to have the plow through, and they beat you up when it counts, as too many of your shots have not enough on them to counter the greater plow through of the stiffer RA, and gut as main.) Your equipment is holding you back and there is no way you are ever going to win a slam that way. Contact me and I will string and frame and balance for you if you like. YOu will be shocked at how good the vs team/alu, 360g/370 sw feels at an RA of 65! Or don't listen, and continue to whine and bitch about how your shots are eaten up by the top guys.
_____ fed lead tape

[tennis_chiro]

Excellent breakdown!!

Geoff,
Great analysis. Now, how do we convert that to players who do not average over 6' 1" and 175 lbs while maintaining a body fat under 10%?! It seems to me Joker is doing the best job of maximizing his relationship to his equipment. He looks to me like he has a slightly slower swing speed than Rafa and Roger and yet is able to hit through the court better than they do. I think, of course, that it is the stroke, but you are pointing out that the equipment is helping him there as well. In the Open final, Nadal clearly had a big problem getting the ball past the service line. Then at the end, running on fumes, his shots got really short, while Joker was able to just allow the racket to "plow through" the ball and he maintained his depth although he was clearly barely better off physically than Nadal. Both were barely serving 100mph first serves. There were second serves in the 70s, maybe in the 60s.

Kids in the 12s, 14s and even 16s are likely to have barely 2/3 of the muscle mass of these guys. Imagine comparing them on a maximum bench press or squat! Yet, the kids are trying to play with the same equipment. If we are going to maximize equipment, we have to consider size and strength. Even in adults, the average player probably is fooling himself if he thinks he can swing the clubs these guys are whipping through the air like magic wands. Certainly, some individuals are a lot stronger if not at least as strong. But it would be a mistake to think you can use their parameters to design your own equipment. As a guideline, yes; but it would be nice to have some idea of where to adjust their parameter to work for a nationally ranked 12 year old who is just hoping to break 5 feet in the next year and weighs in at a mighty 110 lbs!

If you have the inclination, I'd love to hear your recommendations, Geoff, on how to adjust these parameters for some of the kids we are coaching. In the meantime, I have to go back and find your other thread where you explained what RA was ...

don

[GeoffWilliams]

Wooden racquets were a lot heavier than the graphite used today. Old ladies and kids commonly hit with 13-14 oz. frames, and Borg hit with 410g frames, and came into the net a lot more than the serve volleyers do nowadays. (Why do you think Borg never got tired in a match? He was using a sledge hammer and was inured to pain.) Becker used a heavy frame, as did Sampras and Edberg, (385g-405g) and they had no problem with mass/slowing them down. Throw them in gradually, and as they get used to it, add mass every few months, and their arms/shoulders will be able to take it if you use string that does not kill. Stiff strings/polys will hurt you. Copolys are softer and designed to lessen the injury factor of poly. What do you think the kid would choose if he knew the real truth? Plow through and a stiff frame will give him more power for the same effort. All he has to do is acclimate to it. It's the same issue Murray is facing and now Nadal: too light frames, to win the slams. Murray also has too flexible a frame, and I don't believe the reading Raven got on joker's frame at 51, as the frame at that rate is so soft, there is no power there, and I've hit with frames that soft, like the Black Ace. Just no pop, and I think there is no way Joker went from a stiff H22 to a super soft head. I think all three top players are at 65 RA, which measures a given added mass, vibrated on the frame, and measures the cycles of frequent vibrations in a given time frame, like a second, typical at 173 vibrations per second, most of which occur right within .25 of a second after impact, and varies the RA according to the total mass, and string tension. (HIgher tension, harsher string, will hurt you more, and will raise the RA, which is just an abbreviation for the vibration measurement of a given frame. It's not only the mass that affects RA. It's not only the lay up. TEnsion and string will raise stiffness and affect frame vibratory rates. A higher harsher frequency, more amplitude, will rip you up on your elbow. I have a degree in Electricity, which is nothing but corralled, polarized molecular vibration.) That's whY I rec. bhbr, as you can hit hard with it and not get hurt, vital for juniors coming up vs. harsh poly like blue gear. It gives good spin, feels the same at high or low tensions, etc.

Nadal beat Moya at 14 yrs. old, also a Mallorcan. Also used a light frame, head heavy, and the same string as Nadal. Gee, I wonder who trained Nadal? Mr. muscle man with a light frame head heavy. He was known for a big fh. NOw, that shot would be eaten alive and was by many players who came up crushing Moyas fh for breakfast.

Unfortunately, Murray will probably continue with the same flexible frame, at a light wt., and not adjust, and he will look back and regret it, just as Sampras did, for not switching to a 98 sq. in. frame in his autobiography. No one will read Murray's book, as he will not win any slams unless he does listen, if not to me, then to Nate F. Hey, Nate, tell him the truth!

[don_budge]

Stringing recommendation...please.

geoffwilliams...I have a pretty good 17 years old young man, playing all court tennis currently using a Tecnifibre TFight 320 strung with Black Code...middle of the range tension wise.

What would you recommend if he were to combine Black Code with X-One biphase. Which should he use in the crosses and which in the mains? What about the tensions?

[llll]

geoff
are you kiteboard on tenniswarehouse message boards???

[julian1]

RA test

Geoff,
Great analysis. Now, how do we convert that to players who do not average over 6' 1" and 175 lbs while maintaining a body fat under 10%?! It seems to me Joker is doing the best job of maximizing his relationship to his equipment. He looks to me like he has a slightly slower swing speed than Rafa and Roger and yet is able to hit through the court better than they do. I think, of course, that it is the stroke, but you are pointing out that the equipment is helping him there as well. In the Open final, Nadal clearly had a big problem getting the ball past the service line. Then at the end, running on fumes, his shots got really short, while Joker was able to just allow the racket to "plow through" the ball and he maintained his depth although he was clearly barely better off physically than Nadal. Both were barely serving 100mph first serves. There were second serves in the 70s, maybe in the 60s.

Kids in the 12s, 14s and even 16s are likely to have barely 2/3 of the muscle mass of these guys. Imagine comparing them on a maximum bench press or squat! Yet, the kids are trying to play with the same equipment. If we are going to maximize equipment, we have to consider size and strength. Even in adults, the average player probably is fooling himself if he thinks he can swing the clubs these guys are whipping through the air like magic wands. Certainly, some individuals are a lot stronger if not at least as strong. But it would be a mistake to think you can use their parameters to design your own equipment. As a guideline, yes; but it would be nice to have some idea of where to adjust their parameter to work for a nationally ranked 12 year old who is just hoping to break 5 feet in the next year and weighs in at a mighty 110 lbs!

If you have the inclination, I'd love to hear your recommendations, Geoff, on how to adjust these parameters for some of the kids we are coaching. In the meantime, I have to go back and find your other thread where you explained what RA was ...

don

Don,
a specification of RA
please see Page 400 of

http://books.google.com/books?id=79Oq9xyRlaQC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=%22ra+test%22%2B%22stiffness%22tennis%22&source=bl&ots=hBCQOJ3Zz1&sig=JwgwsWjJ9l6HxoQgsIx6y0DPkEM&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Please ask specific questions on the subject of RA,if any.

According to this handbook an RA of a strung racket is LOWER than an RA
of an unstrung racket so we have a disagreement with Geoff here.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=397752

is of some interest as well.

[julian1]

Head YOUTEK IG Speed 18x20

Dear Mr Williams,
how close is a CURRENT racket of Djokovic to the following specification?
Specs are taken from TW
I understand the issue of stiffness as explained by you above
regards,
Julian

Head YOUTEK IG Speed 18x20

Head Size:
100 sq. in. / 645 sq. cm.
Length: 27in / 69cm
Strung Weight: 11.5oz / 326g
Balance: 5 pts HL
Swingweight: 314
Stiffness: 64
Beam Width: 21mm / 20mm / 21mm /
Composition: d30 / Innegra / Graphite
Power Level: Low
Stroke Style: Full
Swing Speed: Fast
Racquet Colors:
White / Black
Grip Type: Hydrosorb

The Tennis Profeesor provides his own specs
Please see

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/racquetspecs2.cgi

The stiffness is 66 for Head YOUTEK IG Speed 18x20

[GeoffWilliams]

Head size is 98 sq. in., lm radical mold, grommets are different drill patterns, lay up is different, RA is not the same, and it's a totally different frame and does not feel close to the stock frame at all. Joker said the new head was "too much power at times.", which would not apply to a 51 RA! I think he changed the RA after RAven tested it in IW 2009, or it was a bad test. Place the frame under tension, and does it increase its stiffness or decrease? Place anything under tension and what happens to it? Such as a knife, or a piece of graphite? It gets stiffer, not less stiff. The molecules resist internal tension, not give in to it! For every force there is a resistant force. Common sense would tell us that! When you string high, the stiffness goes up, not just due to the string, but also due to the increased stress on the frame, and its reaction to that stress. High tension causes elbow injuries, due to that combination. The stress increases on our elbows/shoulders due to higher frequency, higher amplitude at impact, inducing higher injury levels. The higher frequencies induced into our flesh cause the injuries, if the impacts are hard, which increases the amp. It's like a sharper knife cutting into our ligaments, vs. a dull knife.

I think the sw is 370, the power level is moderate and the RA is 62-65 or so, but it's made of different graphite, etc. Strung wt is 359-360g, 27", bal. pt. 32.8 4.8pts. hl, 1.5 cm off center. 1/8" is 1 pt, and most of the wt. is in the handle end, as it's 27" frame, and mid pt. would be 34.3cm.

[GeoffWilliams]

geoffwilliams...I have a pretty good 17 years old young man, playing all court tennis currently using a Tecnifibre TFight 320 strung with Black Code...middle of the range tension wise.

What would you recommend if he were to combine Black Code with X-One biphase. Which should he use in the crosses and which in the mains? What about the tensions?

All court players have to have control at the net and be able to hit flat approach shots. The frame is good for that. I t has texalium.

Real carbon fiber only truly comes in one way, the standard black/grey weave that we’re all used to seeing. You’ve seen things advertised as a colored carbon fiber, for example the silver Texalium wallet that we sell. If somebody is advertising a product like this as carbon fiber, it’s not true, in most cases it’s actually a material called Texalium.
What Is Texalium?

So what is Texalium, and how is it different than carbon fiber? Texalium was developed by a company based out of California named Hexcel. It’s a fiberglass-basic fabric that has a proprietary finish and a thin coating of aluminum on the surface. The aluminum coating is 99.99% pure and approximately 200 angstroms in thickness (One angstrom is one billionth of a meter). This coating produces the highly reflective surface. Texalium fabrics are woven in 2/2 twill, and standard roll lengths are 100 yards.

Difference between Texalium and carbon fiber

The original Texalium product is the silver metallic material that we use in our wallets. Now there are at least four post treatments which can be done to alter the color of the fabric to give it either a blue, yellow, black, or red appearance.


If a colored carbon fiber isn’t made from Texalium, usually it’s a different material that is interwoven with the carbon fiber, such as kevlar or aramid. This gives a slightly different look to the weave, which you can see an example of in our carbon/aramid keychain and from a Status Racing carbon fiber/kevlar seat we saw at SEMA:

Bc is a hexagonal spin string, plasticky, and sort of stiff, like a plastic stiff string with ok tens. main. Bc is an ok string, with ok everything, not great for his style unless it's used as a cross with vs gut! X1 is a good multi, gut sub which does not have as much power as Nrg2, also made by technifibre, but at least its water proof, sort of. Let him try bhbr mains with nrg2 crosses. Better than bc as mains. I would say vs team mains, but they cost too much! Tensions would depend on his total mass. Higher mass: higher tension to deal with length. Moderate mass, lower tensions. I don't think he has enough mass. He can handle 360g, and 60/58lbs.

[GeoffWilliams]

geoff
are you kiteboard on tenniswarehouse message boards???

............. .... .......... ... .

[julian1]

Twistweight and spin

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/location.php

Adding weights at 3 pm and 9 pm AND spin.
Quite interesting
See also

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinexperiment.php

[GeoffWilliams]

joker digital scale

joker frame balance pt 32.8cm

fed, joker, nadal frames, all at about 65 RA, and sw 355-371 Hey, Murray, wake up and smell the plow through!

joker frame lead tape under grommets

As you can see, he places lead not only on the inside of the frames, but under the grommets as well. The stock grommets are not close.

[GeoffWilliams]

joker side by side with stock frame

joker grommets side by side with stock frame

joker throat side by side

As you can see, the throats are totally different than stock.

joker on top of stock shows it's a 98 sq. in.

[GeoffWilliams]

joker balance pt.

joker stock bal. pt.

Stock balance pt. shows it's lighter. Joker looks a little like 4.72pt.s hl at 32.8cm or 1.5cm off center. Most of the wt. is towards the handle even with the lead tape. Of course, the strings weigh 14g, and impact absor. 3g.

Anyway, anyone can see that the real frame is nothing like the stock frame, as the lay up is way higher quality as well as you can buy yourself.

[llll]

............. .... .......... ... .

does that mean yes???
SEND ME A PM IF YOU WISH