Landsman Slice Thanks John

[llll]

john
i really appreciate you taking the time to do one of my strokes
its ironic that ive been trying to get a more driven slice lately
ill work on your suggestions and send another video in a while
thanks again
larry

any other comments are welcome

[don_budge]

My favorite Slices...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_backhand/mac_backhand.html?MacBHSliceCenterFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/mac_lendl_walking/mac_lendl_walking_large.html

Well Larry...it seems that reality has not set in yet. Great for you! It's good to finally see what you are working with and I hope to see more. Like a forehand video...and a serve video. Camera angles are important and the best is with the camera in front of you and 30 degrees to the side of the stroke you are taping.

My first impression about your backhand is one of wonder. I wonder why you are taking such a big backswing and followthrough on such a simple shot. To me... the slice backhand is a very simple shot to be played with touch and feeling. Like McEnroe plays it. Like Nastase played it.

The slice backhand is an extremely important tactical weapon that every player should have in their bag. My two favorites...excluding Rosewal's, were the backhands of John McEnroe and Ille Nastase. These two bad boys, with all of their terrible genius, used the slice backhand the way it was designed to be used, like a dagger or a stiletto...to slice up their opponents, to carve them up by keeping them off balance with change of pace and spin and with placement. This is an extremely tactical shot...to be used thoughtfully.

To develop a sound slice backhand I like to start my students off at the net. This will help them to get the feeling of imparting back spin to the ball with a very short backswing. Additionally, by starting out at the net they begin to get the feel of the use of the front shoulder and the placement of the feet. I feel that by "laying" the front shoulder on the ball and by transferring the weight over the front foot at the same time there is a synergetic effect on the stroke that eliminates the necessity for such an exaggerated swing. By learning to volley on the backhand side a player will also get a good feel for the placement of balls hit at them with speed...by absorbing the speed in the racquet head and playing the ball back at their opponent with placement and spin.

By using a shorter and more compact swing, the player has the ability to change the shape, spin and placement using the same motion. Notice that much of the time McEnroe will simply leave his racquet down through the ball or subtly allow the head to follow up and through the ball depending on what he intends to do with the ball. This sort of slice backhand can be used to produce a short wide angled shot, a short skidding ball up the line, a drop shot, a lob, a floating ball back to the baseline, approach shots...and also a rather stinging drive to any part of the court. One of the real strengths or advantages of this shot is the ability to place the ball with precision and versatility. You would be surprised how much you can keep your opponent off balance with change of spin and speed as well...setting him up for the knockout blow or forcing an error out of him by subtly maneuvering him out of position. This is a shot where you can demonstrate your patience and your resolve...the will to gut out points and matches.

Besides starting the student at the net...I also like to have them play balls in the middle part of the court, in no man's land, hitting the ball on the rise. By practicing hitting the ball on the rise with a shorter backswing, one learns to use the speed of the ball coming at you and up to you, to propel it back with a minimum of effort and a maximum of control...by using your weight in concert with the racquet head and the speed of the ball coming to you. One of the keys is to not allow the ball to get too high on you, but when it does learn to play the ball back deep into the court and hopefully on your opponents backhand side.

The modern game with the modern equipment allows for rather exaggerated swings in order to play this relatively simple shot. Federer made quite a nice living for years by drawing his two handed opponents into crosscourt backhand rallies until he patiently got the shot he felt he could be decisive with to exploit his opponent. By slicing wide angles to his opponents two handed backhands he eventually forced them to drop one of their hands and then he had them...it was just a matter of time...and just a matter of what he wanted to do with them at this point.

With a larger racquet face it is now possible to make the swing that you are using to follow through basically at one single point relative to the ball's arc or path. But at the same time when you are using this type of stroke you are limiting yourself in terms of the variety of your shot that you have the possibilities to play. Playing this type of exaggerated swing back in the days of classic tennis with a wooden racquet would of produced far too many mishits. I recommend that you try to use the racquet head to follow through the path of the ball instead of slicing through the path at a single point. Much of the action that you are attempting to produce with a huge swing can be produced by angling the racquet head, using the transfer of your weight and by adjusting the length and level of your backswing as well.

I agree with John's assessment of your backswing and your follow through. I sure would like to see some vintage McEnroe and vintage Nastase video. As badly behaved as these two were...they stroked their slice backhands like true artists with rapiers...with touch and feel, with knife like consequences. Death by a thousand cuts...real torture.

Speaking of reality...do you know who Rudy Hernando is? A fellow senior Floridian of yours...with an absolutely exquisite slice backhand. I recommend you take a couple of lessons from him if he is available. He's in Ft. Lauderdale, I believe.

[don_budge]

Hello? Sorry to bother you...with a question.

You did say that any other comments were welcome, so I went to the trouble of writing a rather long post regarding your backhand and did not get a single word in response. Like John...I took the time. Was it that my post was completely lacking in substance, was it totally boring, did I miss the mark?

At any rate...just for the record, I am not offended. Not in the least. Maybe a little curious.

But I have a question for you Larry...we have been having a lot of discussions regarding slice backhands on the forum and everyone seems to want to talk about the technique aspect of the shot but I feel there has been lacking a tactical perspective in the discussions.

So I have a question for you...if you would be so kind to respond to. If you don't I will certainly understand...so please don't feel compelled.

What are your tactical objectives for your slice backhand?

[bottle]

Ha-ha. Although I'd seen those clips before, when somebody else embeds them, it gives them an entirely different look. Wow, McEnroe's backhand slice is practically his backhand volley, no?

I like your attempted eliciting of people's tactical objectives. But having compared chess and tennis myself a lot, and having endorsed the comparison, I must add that tennis objectives are not usually as complicated as Bobby Fischer's preferred variations of the Ruy Lopez opening or any of the queen's pawn openings that other players like for creating confusion.

My friend Jim sat next to Pancho Segura at a tournament once, and Pancho kept talking about basic stuff like approaching down the line or knocking off the angle from the same short ball perhaps even with a drop-shot. Pancho held forth, in other words, on having two or more orchestrated choices in every situation, but with almost all of them involving coming in to net.

Since I like to write about tennis, partially because of its complexity, I'll say here I find more complexity in technique than in strategy, although I want a very good strategy and maybe one I myself was too dumb to come up with-- to win.

To go slightly off subject: These clips also show McEnroe's topspin backhand (poor Ivan is getting ignored again), and I see a similarity with that of Pancho Gonzalez in the way that the racket head comes around smooth, fast and level before the lift.

For me, this seems the easiest and best way to hit a one-hander BY FAR, although I only made this discovery in my seventy-first year.

You were talking about an ideal player having Pancho Gonzalez's serve and Don Budge's backhand, and I know you teach the DB backhand sometimes, which seems to me more of a naturally undifferentiated baseball swing as Donald Budge himself always wrote.

First, what do you think of the Pancho Gonzalez forehand? Second, who should imitate the Don Budge backhand? I finally know, from years of trying to master it, that it isn't for me.

Note: Anybody reading this should know that don_budge (Steve Navarro) knew Donald Budge and worked for him and hit with him, and that Donald Budge liked him. Also, Steve did a national tour with Aaron Krickstein of Grosse Pointe, Michigan.

Go, Tigers! And Lions! And how often can one say that-- with reason?

[worldsbestcoach]

yes

Thank you, bottle, for telling us about don budge (steve).

Also, I agree with don budge wholeheartedly that a slice backhand is similar to a good backhand volley. I think some other member here at tennisplayer.net mentioned that Rosewall not only had a great backhand slice, but also a backhand volley that was perhaps greater than his underspin backhand groundstroke. don budge said some wise things about the slice, in his posts, above.

Talking about the similarity of slice backhand & backhand volley: I just saw a replay of match point by Djokovic against Federer in the final of the 2010 China Open. Fed went to net, and Djok returned it to Fed's backhand volley. Rosewall would have pounced on that backhand volley and put it away easily. But Fed prepared the racket with too big of a backswing. As he was preparing backwards, the ball was approaching and falling, dipping. Roger's backhand volley caught the top of the tape, because Roger did not catch the backhand volley early enough (among other reasons). If Rog would tighten up his underspin backhands at both net and from ground, Rog would improve even more, from the already highest level he is at, currently.

I like don budge's suggestions for a compact backswing and for the possibility of an offensive shot sometimes, with the underspin backhand -- whether from the ground or at net.

[don_budge]

Whistle while you work...

Two wonderful posts by a couple of wonderful guys. Love you both!

There are pages of thoughts coming to my fingertips via my brain via my eyes.

Both of you are just extremely thought provoking and oozing intelligence...and you both kill me. There is nothing I would rather do this morning than sit here in my little office, listening to the wind blow overlooking the deserted farm in the distance and respond to these thought provoking posts...unfortunately I am going to work. I should say...fortunately I am going to work.

At ten this morning I will be at the local college with my midwife phd friend writing and translating from Swedish some research article for an English medical journal then its four hours on the court at the little club in Skultorp. I will be working on my reply to both of you while I'm working. Plus there is one brewing about Borg and Sweden as well.

You can whistle while you work...you know.

Gonzales, Segura, Budge, Rosewall, Borg, Krickstein, bottle, worldsbestcoach, Navarro. What's in a name? Everything!

[don_budge]

Gonzo and The Rose...tactically speaking

To go slightly off subject: These clips also show McEnroe's topspin backhand (poor Ivan is getting ignored again), and I see a similarity with that of Pancho Gonzalez in the way that the racket head comes around smooth, fast and level before the lift.

For me, this seems the easiest and best way to hit a one-hander BY FAR, although I only made this discovery in my seventy-first year.

You were talking about an ideal player having Pancho Gonzalez's serve and Don Budge's backhand, and I know you teach the DB backhand sometimes, which seems to me more of a naturally undifferentiated baseball swing as Donald Budge himself always wrote.

First, what do you think of the Pancho Gonzalez forehand? Second, who should imitate the Don Budge backhand? I finally know, from years of trying to master it, that it isn't for me.

Awesome post, bottle. Our friend Phil Picuri has promised to post some pictures of the Gonzales game on a new thread sometime during the weekend...where and when we can resume this discussion. I caught up with him via carrier pigeon as he is on some kind of archeological dig in northern Italy...in the Alps there. Cell phone signals cannot reach him...thus the pigeons.

worldsbestcoach...I am inclined to agree with you about the Federer volleying technique. I teach my students from the beginning of the volley lesson...that there is an imaginary wall on either side of the player's body and the first move with the racquet is to go in front of that imaginary wall so as not to damage the racquet. Usually I have them standing with their toes just behind the service line and instruct them that the wall extends up from the service line. You must go forward and take the racquet head to the ball, immediately! When hitting the ball in the air it is equally important to go forward and quickly... with the first move on the ball to catch it as high as you can and as close to the net as you can. This moving forward aspect of the volley is vitally important in order to train a person who volleys well instinctively. At the same time, the restriction in the backswing is highlighted by the fact that the ball and the racquet are both moving forward and since the ball is in the air, it is traveling at a higher rate of speed than after it bounces...there is little margin for error if you hope to meet the ball on the sweet spot which is a key in crisp volleying.

In Roger's defense...as if he needs defending...early in his career it looked as if he was going to be a serve and volley player. But according to him, the combination of the monkeying around with the court speed around 2004 on, and the engineering advancement in the strings discouraged him from pursuing that tactic. It seems as if he has lost his instincts for the net play...even his approach game appears to be suspect to me and by that I mean of course for the highest levels of the game. One of the things that I admire most about him is that he was able to adjust his tactics in mid course and stay on top of the game during a period when there was a lot of monkeying around going on. He was able to do this largely because he is very sound...fundamentally speaking in a classical sense. There are no other players around in the modern game that can make the same claim. In the imaginary wood racquet tournament that I conduct in my head...Roger wins every time between the top four usual suspects of today.

One of the key components of the serve and volley tactic is the constant pressure it puts on the opponent to come up with passing shots. If you don't pursue it consistently opponents have less pressure to produce great passing shots therefore they seem to come up with more effective shots...and the other thing is if you don't continually press the advantage at the net the volleys and approach shots tend to get a bit more tentative...and less decisive...which sort of fits the description you made. In Rosewall's days there was no hesitation about attacking the net and certainly the approach shot games were better honed seeing that the tactic was pursued on a consistent basis. The players of that dead and bygone era were more or less compelled to go forwards.

[llll]

You did say that any other comments were welcome, so I went to the trouble of writing a rather long post regarding your backhand and did not get a single word in response. Like John...I took the time. Was it that my post was completely lacking in substance, was it totally boring, did I miss the mark?

At any rate...just for the record, I am not offended. Not in the least. Maybe a little curious.

But I have a question for you Larry...we have been having a lot of discussions regarding slice backhands on the forum and everyone seems to want to talk about the technique aspect of the shot but I feel there has been lacking a tactical perspective in the discussions.

So I have a question for you...if you would be so kind to respond to. If you don't I will certainly understand...so please don't feel compelled.

What are your tactical objectives for your slice backhand?

don_budge(steve)
i will respond to this question first
i apologize for not acknowledgeing and thanking you for your time and effort
in your post above. my bad.
i will respond to that one later today
i dont come to the forum on a dilay basis so much time goes by before i see / read things

my tactics for my slice is as follows
initially it was my only backhand that i could reliably get the ball back into play so it was my rally shot /approach shot/return of serve /passing shot/and drop shot.

my topspin backhand has improved so i can use it for return of serve/rally ball/passing shot

although my slice is still more accurate and reliable

so with all that in mind how do i use my slice
chip and charge/ return and come in in doubles
approach up the line to get to net
short angle to bring my opponent in or to angle off a ball to open up the court /win the point
keep the ball low if i play someone with an extreme grip
change of pace in the rally

again your writings do not fall on deaf ears
i am an eager student trying to improve
larry

[don_budge]

llll aka Larry...

Great to hear from you...I was a little sad thinking that you didn't respond to me.

But no matter! Thanks for responding to my question. Good answer, too.

Tactic number 1 is always...

my tactics for my slice is as follows
initially it was my only backhand that i could reliably get the ball back into play

More to follow...in Super Coaching!!! Thank you.

ps...are you near Ft. Lauderdale?

[llll]

Great to hear from you...I was a little sad thinking that you didn't respond to me.

But no matter! Thanks for responding to my question. Good answer, too.

Tactic number 1 is always...

my tactics for my slice is as follows
initially it was my only backhand that i could reliably get the ball back into play

More to follow...in Super Coaching!!! Thank you.

ps...are you near Ft. Lauderdale?

im in vero beach
about 2 -2 1/2 hours from ft. lauderdale
but a whole different world in lifestyle
laid back, still can see trees and grass and ocean

are you ever in my neighborhood??

[don_budge]

Rudy...

I was thinking of an old friend of mine who has the most exquisite slice backhand in Ft. Lauderdale...Rudy Hernando. He could definitely help you. He slice and diced Tom Okker once at the US Open...I believe.

He's pretty highly ranked in the Senior 70 and over.

[llll]

i re read your initial post and realize its rudy hernado who is in ft. lauderdale
where are you located???
you mentioned in your post and i forgot to list this tactical use of the slice i use is to float a ball deep to gain time to recover
hitting thru the ball more with a less steep approach to the ball ive been working on and i plan to send john an update so you all can see my progress after a few months.
don_budge if you give me an email ill be able to send you via flip share video of my forehand and serve and volleys
i dont know how to post them
you can pm me the info if you wish

[don_budge]

48? It's never too late.

Thanks Larry for sending your video to me. Somehow we have to figure out how to post it...plus some current video. Seeing that the video is some years old it will be fascinating to see what has transpired since in terms of progress... or regress. There is a story about the work in process that is most interesting.

I am very interested in seeing the serve...without the wiggles.

Really impressive stuff...lll. To embark on this journey at 48 when most are taking up golf...is very courageous! I salute you.

[johnyandell]

We can get it uploaded. Did Larry email it to you or?

[llll]

john check your pm