Timing the Leg Drive and Backswing

[vmiller]

I have a question for John, Brian, or anyone else who is able answer it.

The following is an excerpt from Brian's article on the serve backswing (part 1).

By this I mean coordinating the timing of the movement of the arm and racket and the timing of the leg drive. Our research shows that to maximize the benefit for the server, the arm and racket motion and the leg drive should start and end at the same time. This means that they must also have the same duration. This close synchronization is characteristic of all high level service motions.

...

The timing problem can be more severe, however, when the leg drive ends before the arm and racquet reach their end of back swing position. In this case the influence of the leg drive on the hitting arm motion is reduced significantly.

This problem can be an unintended consequence when players adopt an extreme abbreviated windup on the model of Andy Roddick. The reason is the racquet must travel further from the start of the abbreviated backswing position. Roddick is able to pull this motion off, but if the player is unable to complete the backswing on time, the leg drive will run ahead of the racquet and arm.

I have a bad case of this problem (leg drive ending well before the end of the backswing). Does anyone have suggestions on how to work on correcting it? One might think that the simple mental cue to start the backswing earlier or the leg drive later would be how to do it, but easier said than done!

I do have an abbreviated windup, but this timing problem is just as bad with a more traditional one.

Thanks,
Vin

[johnyandell]

It's probably a rhythm problem and related to toss height. Rushing to get up to the ball. And I doubt that the abbreviated wind up has nothing to do with it. Got any video though?

[stotty]

A good reference point when working on this kind of thing is your feet should leave the ground at the END of the backswing (when the racket is at its lowest point in the racket drop) a good way to check this is using slow motion video. The cartwheel of the trunk during the backswing should happen in complete synchrony with the leg drive. BG helped me work on a kid with this kind of problem. Once you can identify key areas as reference points you can gradually work toward them.

If you are getting there too early, a good thing to do is slow things down and practice timing the swing in synchrony with the leg drive. Try and achieve perfection like this first before trying the more explosive version.

It's a tricky thing to work on. Video clips work a treat and are essential for this kind problem. Post a clip, let's take a look

[vmiller]

Here's some video:

diagonal view (front), abbreviated wind up
side view (back), abbreviated wind up

After looking at some old video, maybe it is a touch worse now with the abbreviated swing.

side view (back), traditional wind up

Wow, that last video is 6 years old. Where does time go?

Here's something else I thought was interesting that may be setting me up for failure. Perhaps I'm tilting my torso too far back? (see below) Looks like it's resulting in added shoulder abduction, too.



Thanks for taking a look!

Vin

[gsheiner]

Vin,

Here's my 2 cents.

I compared your serve to the roddick serve

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andyroddick/andyroddick_serve/ar_1st_serve/ar_1st_serve.html?AR1stSDeuceSide1.mov

Your set up is quite similar but as you have pointed out, the timing of your leg drive seems off. In particular, the timing of the kick back of the right leg is way earlier than roddick's.

Roddick seems to time the kick back ( which I believe represents the timing of the powerful hip thrust) with the triceps extension and shoulder throw.

All beautifully synchronized in that mystical way which can produce insane power.

In your video, I see your kick back begin while you are in your racket drop --way earlier --and perhaps this throws off your timing.

Hope this helps,

cheers,

Glenn

[don_budge]

Question....

vmiller...why did you change from your traditional delivery? How long has it been?

[vmiller]

Glenn,

My kick back is definitely a problem. Check out Your Strokes August '05 and you'll see that it used to be much worse. However, I'm pretty sure it's more of an effect of this timing issue than a cause. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the kick back is a function of being in the air and the need for the rear leg to counterbalance the forward momentum of the torso. If this is the case, I would say that my kick back appears early simply because I'm in the air too early relative to my racket path. In other words, I think the coordination of the leg drive and racket drop happen well before the kick back which would make it it unlikely for the latter to influence the former. Do you see it differently?

Another thing you'll notice is that I'm landing at or just after contact which is another discrepancy. Since my leg drive is early in relation to my racket drop, it seems fitting that my kick back and landing are early, too.

Don,

I'm always experimenting and have found that I lose the feel for my serve much less frequently with an abbreviated motion. I think this is simply a result of it quieting things down, reducing the number of "moving parts," and enabling me to maintain better balance. The simplification also helps me with the accuracy of my toss. In fact, for several years, my motion was even more abbreviated. I basically put the racket right to the trophy position before tossing.

To be honest, I think it's pretty ugly, but I'm going with what works best. Perhaps the abbreviated motion is bringing these improvements through compensation for another problem. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of it one day.

I changed in '06. I've tried going back a number of times with different ideas on how to incorporate it, but it always turns out to be a detriment.

Vin

[don_budge]

Traditional vs. Abbreviated...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=442&stc=1&d=1313497112

I have written in numerous posts about the similarities between the golf swing and the service motion. So much of the success and repeatability of both of these motions are dependent on the backswing because it is in the backswing that you are lining up all of your energy sources in order to go forward to make the most efficient and explosive motion on the ball. A huge factor in both the service motion and the golf swing is the use of the lower body.

From looking at the two different motions...your abbreviated and your traditional, there is no question in my mind which one that I would want to develop. From the video that you have submitted it looks to me that your abbreviated motion is setting you up to "hit" at the ball whereas the motion of your traditional serve looks to me that you are making a rather nice "swing" at the ball.

Judging from the start to finish of both swings it is even more apparent to me that the traditional is the motion that I would choose if I were you or if you were someone that I was coaching. You make a nice wide and unhurried backswing with your traditional swing and the racquet head makes a nice lazy drop behind your back once it gets to the top of your backswing. At this point you make a nice big loop with the head of your racquet behind you and your racquet follows through very nicely to the left side of your body and your lower body has come through very decisively...the way that enables you to make the most efficient use of the energy of your lower body. I think that I would tinker with your setup a bit, though. The abbreviated motion leaves you with an abbreviated finish which adds to the impression that it is not as aesthetically pleasing. But it is not necessarily aesthetics that interests you...it is more likely functionality. The funny thing is...sometimes motions that look to be unorthodox have limitations built into them.

The only thing that looks a bit suspect in your traditional service, besides your setup, is your toss. By taking your motion frame by frame it appears to me that you are too close to the ball when you are actually striking it...you look a little cramped for space. This would impair you from fully extending and driving with your legs. If it were me...I would try to throw the ball a bit farther into the court and just a bit higher (you actually tossed the ball much higher with the abbreviated motion)...this will give you more room to make a big swinging motion with your racquet and to fully extend for the ball. Think of swinging around a much larger ball than a tennis ball...a beach ball for instance. I would like to see another angle of this motion...from the net, thirty degrees to your right.

The abbreviated motion has too many limitations built into it. Chief among them is the limited rhythm and tempo that you can create that is so important to great service motions...and golf swings.

[stotty]

From the clips you've posted I prefer the traditional serve over the abbreviated serve. You seem more synchronised with the traditional serve. Your arms on the abbreviated serve are out of synch and are not working together. Your arms on the traditional serve don't work together much either but somehow it looks better and more synchronised. You seem to be slightly more sideways stance-wise with the traditional serve than the abbreviated serve.

In both clips you don't appear to the looking toward the target. When you prepare to serve you need to twist your torso and look toward the box you are serving to. Looking at where you are about to serve gives you a better sense of direction and increases the likelihood of hitting the target! Try to get out of the habit of looking toward the side fence when you are about to serve. Look ahead!

In theory the traditional swing could be redundant these days because you can gain just as much power from a very short take back. But the longer, deeper swing of a traditional serve is there for rhythm...and serving is all about rhythm. That's why most top players opt for a longer swing.

I'm just wondering why the abbreviated version works better than the traditional serve? Are you more consistent this way? I cannot find any reason looking at the clips why the abbreviated version would work better? Maybe the same, but not better?

When you serve, try to operate the arms TOGETHER....but master the art of getting the throwing arm off at 4mph while commencing the swing at 2mph. This ensures the left shoulder will be higher than the right shoulder when you get into the "loaded" power position, and leaves the racket playing catch up. Getting more synchronised with the arms will significantly improve your chances of coordinating your leg drive with your swing.

[vmiller]

Thanks for the feedback on the wind up. I think there's a lot of value in what you guys pointed out, and you've inspired me to give the traditional wind up yet another try, but the question still remains about how to fix the timing issue. I have plenty of video indicating that reverting to my previous wind up won't fix it.

I'm hoping John will elaborate on his thoughts about rhythm and toss.

Vin

[tennis_chiro]

Back to Basics

Vin,
if I were working with you on this serve. I would be taking you back to basics. Look carefully at the 2 frames just before and after contact in your first video. You are supposed to be hitting up, but it appears you are hitting out and down. You need a high speed camera (CASIO) to actually see what you are doing, but with the big leap into the court you are sacrificing the necessary upward action of your strike at the ball. By striking straight up and throwing your force straight up, when the racket gets to the "end of the line" because you are holding on to the racket, the racket head is accelerated forward at the end of the tether created by your shoulder, arm, hand, racket handle. The force has to go somewhere, so it goes forward. The ball should be going just a couple of degrees below horizontal and the racket face should be almost vertical at contact; the ball will go out at a vector perpendicular to the face of the racket. Look at the contact points on a few of the high speed serves on this site (not the 6' 5" guys) and you will see the position of the racket face at contact. Then look at those clips or look at regular speed clips in archives that are the same speed as your video. Look at the racket shaft angle immediately before contact; then look at yours. Use a side view.

So I would ask you to go back a few steps. Try hitting serves without any steps at all, not even moving the right foot. Yes, this will eliminate a lot of your leg drive, but you have to feel hitting up.

Then when you can pop the ball cleanly - not necessarily that hard, but cleanly, I would ask you to toss the ball just a little forward so you had to move the right foot into the court coming off contact, but leaving the left foot in place.

Then finally we would add a little thrust with your legs to emphasize the pull of the racket drop you should now be feeling a little better. When you find that pull, you may be able to add more leg thrust. But you can't do that until you can effectively hit up at your serve. Traditional (which I love) or abbreviated backswing is not the problem. Either one of those can get you to a good trophy position. You have to feel the drop and the upward hit from there. Then you can use the leg drive, not to leap into the court, but to exaggerate that feeling you get in the deep "pro drop".

good luck,
don

[don_budge]

Pro drop?

So what did you guys think of old don_budge's pro drop and extension 35 years ago? (Pic in comment #8)

[stotty]

So what did you guys think of old don_budge's pro drop and extension 35 years ago? (Pic in comment #8)

Looks darn good to me

[vmiller]

Hi Don (tennis_chiro),

The clarity isn't the best, but wouldn't you say that the racket is just about vertical at contact? I'd say the big problem in this picture is that I'm already landing (at contact) which comes back to the timing. Do you think the two are related?



When I took the videos I posted earlier, I also happened to take video of the drill you mentioned. (I've already been using it on and off for a long time, but perhaps not enough) I was curious to see if it changed my timing. Hard to tell, but I can see that I'm still using my legs despite not leaving the ground, and by looking at the movement in my front heel, I can see that the timing is still off (heel is coming back down before contact)

serve without leg drive

Don (don_budge), I agree ... great drop!

Vin

[tennis_chiro]

single pictures don't talk

Hi Don (tennis_chiro),

The clarity isn't the best, but wouldn't you say that the racket is just about vertical at contact? I'd say the big problem in this picture is that I'm already landing (at contact) which comes back to the timing. Do you think the two are related?



When I took the videos I posted earlier, I also happened to take video of the drill you mentioned. (I've already been using it on and off for a long time, but perhaps not enough) I was curious to see if it changed my timing. Hard to tell, but I can see that I'm still using my legs despite not leaving the ground, and by looking at the movement in my front heel, I can see that the timing is still off (heel is coming back down before contact)

serve without leg drive

Don (don_budge), I agree ... great drop!

Vin

You really need some high speed slomo video to see what is going on, but I like the clip of you doing the drill without any backswing better than the others. I wouldn't say there is no leg drive there, just no jump. It's not correct of course, but the timing of your snap to the ball looks better there.

A couple of things;
First, try to think of the action as throwing the racket not across the net, but straight up like it was going over a very high fence and you needed to land very close to the other side.

Second, think of progressing from what you are doing there to actually going up to the ball just a little as you hit it, even if you hit it really slow. Then go a little further and toss the ball a little further up and forward so you have to reach for it and go up off your left toe so much that your right foot is pulled off the ground by your elevated right hip (not jumping). But leave your left toe stationary for the moment. In the next step, go up with your leg drive so that you actually leave the ground with the left foot and the left foot lands inside the baseline at least 6 inches. But not until you can do the other steps comfortably first.

don