Does Nadal Ever Supinate?

[jimlosaltos]

Certainly, Nadal pronates on most serves. Not arguing that. (putting aside the technical discussion of whether pronation is the correct term, as your site has pointed out).

But -- and I know this is heretical -- on some of his wide, slow, heavy slice serves I swear he does not, instead rolling around the ball.

Is there anything to this?

I attached one still. Now, I know this is late in his follow through, but I don't know how (or why) you'd pronate, have the palm facing out, then rotate your hand 360 deg the other way while following through so your thumb is on top.

[johnyandell]

Jim did you investigate this in the stroke archive? we'll also have within a few months new high speed video of his serve. I suspect you see him "pronate" similar to everyone, but tell me what you see.

[gzhpcu]

Only time you supinate on a serve is when you use a forehand grip and hit the ball from right to left, instead of left to right. This reverse serve was used about a hundred years ago, and today is only a trick serve...

[jimlosaltos]

Ever?

Yup, looked at your archives.

One problem is that they aren't labelled and we can't see the direction or action on the serve. But then, with Nadal, you can pretty much assume every serve in the ad court is a slice, so perhaps that doesn't matter.

Again, he certainly pronates {OK, exhibits exterior shoulder rotation with ulnar deviation, as one of your articles put it ). In fact, in one picture I took at BNP, Nadal pronates more than anyone I've ever seen; his palm is literally facing straight up immediately after his follow-through. Must have incredible flexibility to have shoulders that size and still be able to turn like that.

But I wondered, from some other video's, if he does also use flat or supinated motions on occasion. {Pic below from BNP: Now, this is extreme pronation!}

[johnyandell]

The locations section is here for first serves, there is also one for second serves:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rafael_nadal/rn_serve/rn_location/rn_location_1st_serve.html?RN1stSDeuceWideFront1.pct

No one can "roll around" the ball in a 4 millisecond event--that's an old teaching myth. It's a matter of degree how much "pronation" on a given ball.

[jimlosaltos]

Thx

Ok. Thanks, John.

[gzhpcu]

This guy is hitting a reverse serve...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgap_W1kZCA

[jryle1]

The locations section is here for first serves, there is also one for second serves:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rafael_nadal/rn_serve/rn_location/rn_location_1st_serve.html?RN1stSDeuceWideFront1.pct

No one can "roll around" the ball in a 4 millisecond event--that's an old teaching myth. It's a matter of degree how much "pronation" on a given ball.

When you say "roll around the ball", are you talking about slice or topspin or both? I've never been fully 100% clear in how a player hits the different types of serves. Is it the angle of the racquet face on contact?

[johnyandell]

That and possibly the spot the strings hit the ball. One of the mysteries.

[don_budge]

Edge of the Racquet?

When you say "roll around the ball", are you talking about slice or topspin or both? I've never been fully 100% clear in how a player hits the different types of serves. Is it the angle of the racquet face on contact?

Possibly the direction in which the edge of the racquet is traveling...which determines the angle of the racquet face exposed to the ball at the point of contact on the ball with the strings.

Of course you cannot roll around the tennis ball in a high speed event such as a service...but you can imagine that you are rolling around a very big ball...perhaps the size of an exercise ball, after making contact.

But does that explain what Nadal is doing. I don't know. In the second pic he looks as if he is "turning out" an overhead...but obviously it is some sort of kick action he is using. I believe that the pic illustrates also that this was probably the position of his hand and wrist when he met the ball and he has maintained that position in his follow through. I can almost envision him following through a very large ball on this delivery. He is not what I would consider to be an "orthodox" model even in terms of the modern game...and of course he is left handed which further complicates our observations of him.

Perhaps if we looked at this picture from a mirror image (right handed Nadal) it wouldn't look so odd.

In the words of one Great American..."this picture may be worth a thousand worms".