Racquet snaps the wrist on serve...

[bottle]

At the pro drop, the forearm supinates giving more power to the subsequent forearm pronation. Hence, it seems to me that pronation starts first from way back and then upper arm internal rotation kicks in, giving the pronation a turbo effect.... IMHO

Exactly.

[stroke]

At the pro drop, the forearm supinates giving more power to the subsequent forearm pronation. Hence, it seems to me that pronation starts first from way back and then upper arm internal rotation kicks in, giving the pronation a turbo effect.... IMHO

I think in the best serves, the supiation is maintained throughout the drop and initial move to contact, and pronation happens at contact point. I heard someone say one time, check your watch on all serves, out in front for flat(protate through center of the ball), to the side(striking right side of ball) for slice, and over your head but still in front(striking bottom left of ball), for kick. I thought that was a great mental image.

[gzhpcu]

At the pro drop, the forearm supinates giving more power to the subsequent forearm pronation. Hence, it seems to me that pronation starts first from way back and then upper arm internal rotation kicks in, giving the pronation a turbo effect.... IMHO

[bottle]

Hi bottle, not quite sure I understand what you are saying... It seems to me, correct me if I misinterpret it, that your internal upper arm rotation comes after impact. If so, anything done after impact, does not seem to contribute much to the serve, other than, as you mention, spare the ice...

Oh, THAT repetition. I'm very interested in the notion of reversing something stupid into something smart. Here is Bruce Elliot saying that pronation (forearm internal rotation) should precede upper arm internal rotation! Just the opposite of what I was doing! And Bruce Elliot is so emphatic on this point! He stops his disquisition altogether to say (though these are my and not his exact words), listen, reader, and make sure you understand this perfectly because you need to get such an important thing exactly right!

I'm not kidding. He says that forearm pronation should precede upper arm rotation! Doesn't leave much time for the upper arm rotation since triceptic extension from the elbow already preceded the forearm pronation!

I too was stunned if not baffled (some would say confusion is my resting state). WAS NOT Bruce Elliot the very authority who gave us the universally accepted axiom that upper arm rotation is the biggest possible single contributor to racket head speed?

If that's true, I certainly don't want to do it after the ball is gone. So I think I'll hurry the triceptic extension to make time for the pronation to make a little time for upper arm rotation BEFORE BUT NOT MUCH BEFORE (!!!!!) CONTACT.

This flies in the face of what Coach Cyril (or is it Kyril) wants. And one wants to be wary of him since Coach Cyril looks-- on the internet-- big and macho and mean (all three!).

There's no question what Coach Cyril wants other than to pound a person such as myself feet first down through the surface of a hard court. Coach Cyril wants to see the racket length whirl about from way around like the first of three helicopter blades!

One can see the reasoning in this, sort of like Chris Lewit's creating a longer runway up to contact. So that speed can appreciate.

I guess (and guessing is also what I'm about) that the opposite premise here is that the instant that muscles contract is when they are strongest and most effective!

Choose please between these conflicting views-- I know it's what I plan to do.

[bottle]

I hope so. I'm convinced that repetition of the same action is the key to victory.

[gzhpcu]

Think you are repeating yourself, bottle...

[bottle]

The angle I'm working on comes from the two articles by Bruce Elliot here at TP-- much more genial and readable than I somehow had been led to believe, maybe by myself.

Elliot identifies a SEQUENCE between upper arm and forearm rotations. He sees forearm rotation (pronation) come first!

When I combine this notion with a post that someone was kind enough to point out to me-- written by myself some time back on the subject of John Isner's serve-- I found myself doing a bit of overhaul.

I saw Isner's internal rotation of upper arm starting pretty late-- approximately at contact.

Just tried some serves with pronation to contact and internal rotation of upper arm from contact and obtained more racket head speed.

It was the first day the practice court I use was free of ice although people were skating adjacently.

[gzhpcu]

Just tried some serves with pronation to contact and internal rotation of upper arm from contact and obtained more racket head speed.

Hi bottle, not quite sure I understand what you are saying... It seems to me, correct me if I misinterpert it, that your internal upper arm rotation comes after impact. If so, anything done after impact, does not seem to contribute much to the serve, other than, as you mention, spare the ice...

[bottle]

The angle I'm working on comes from the two articles by Bruce Elliot here at TP-- much more genial and readable than I somehow had been led to believe, maybe by myself.

Elliot identifies a SEQUENCE between upper arm and forearm rotations. He sees forearm rotation (pronation) come first!

When I combined this notion with a post that someone was kind enough to point out to me-- written by myself some time back on the subject of John Isner's serve-- I found myself doing a bit of overhaul.

I saw Isner's internal rotation of upper arm starting pretty late-- approximately at contact.

Just tried some serves with pronation to contact and internal rotation of upper arm from contact and obtained more racket head speed.

It was the first day the practice court I use was free of ice.

[gzhpcu]

Isn't the server hitting up on the ball? Then at the peak we have full extension and the loose wrist is like a hinge. The upper arm and forearm rotate, the arm extends, the racket is whipped foward and upward towards impact. Seems like it is passive to me, important is that the wrist is loose to allow the action to occur.

[DougEng]

Good Article

Well expressed but it's not new. Hopefully everyone teaches it!! There is no uniform acceleration in any of the strokes, much less the serve. And frankly, I'm not sure if the concept of the racquet accelerating the wrist is that accurate. We underestimate how much inertia at the racquet tip is created that can't be undone. It's a matter of acceleration of distal segments in the kinetic chain. The end of the bull whip. There's a trick I use to teach how to achieve velocity on the serve. How fast can you move the racquet while keeping the elbow still…or how much radial distance can you move the racquet through only rotation/torque of the elbow.

Best,
Doug

[GeoffWilliams]

Players don't usually hit great shots unless they fly into the shot with their whole body.

[johnyandell]

The wrist is moving. But is it contraction and being "used" for a purpose? Or a consequence of other forces? Is it action or reaction or relaxation? Does trying to move it slow it down?

That debate has been going on for a long time and probably (actually certainly) will never be resolved to the satisfaction of the protagonists. Unless of course we call drill holes in Fed's muscles for electrodes...

My own opinion for players not at tour level (and probably tour level as well) is that the more you try to consciously use your wrist the more problems you cause. The most recent biomechanical studies show forehand wrist movement (that is forward flexing) is actually impeded at times by the muscles and that it's key role is in racket alignment.

For a look at the wrist around the contact on a Djok forehand see the interactive forum this month...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2591

[jdcremin]

All wrist here

Look at the is Federer forehand - nobody can say he's not flexing his wrist from extended to neutral. You lay the wrist back for a reason, to use it, otherwise, just keep it aligned with the forearm like 1954. The same thing happens with the serve.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Inside_Out&stroke=RFFHInsideOutFront1_500fps.mp4

[jdcremin]

Late reply

For me, the serve has always felt like and overhand throw and the forehand like a side throw. The wrist is actively flexing when throwing a baseball - to a point, then it relaxes. You guys seem to be saying that the wrist just allows the racket to come through, like a hinge - with no active forearm flexion besides some radial or ulnar deviation on the forehand or serve, respectively. I say that the wrist brings the racquet head forward then relaxes once the racquet handle is aligned with the forearm. So it is a hinge but only after it does some work.