Can you spot the problem on this serve?

[llll]

hI
YES the analysis and webpage will be in english too

www.secundosaque.com seems to be only in spanish

[latreille]

bIOMOTION tENNIS

hI
YES the analysis and webpage will be in english too

[llll]

Hi

about technical video analysis , we have created Biomotion Tennis , to help players and coaches to improv the technique of the players at all level

I work in UK ,( have worked as Technical director the RPT ) and have developed Biomotion tennis with Alex Heavy ( argentinian coach , who work with ATP Players in Argentina, Alex is specialised in Biomecanic for tennis )

we will propose to analyse the strokes of players filmed by Coaches or themself or in Uk I can come and film in HD and High speed camera

we will propose soon a webpage for this
Biomotion tennis is about explaining motor learning and learning skills and how to accelerate the learning system by breaking doan every shots in 8 Fundamentals body motion based on the Pros players parts and intensive use of video analyse for coaches and players

if you like more info
read the articles we publish in

https://www.segundosaque.com

cheers
Yves Latreille
email
latreille.yves@wanadoo.fr

tiene algo en ingles para los que no hablen espanol??

[bottle]

To address just one of Stotty's statements: No, no one sees any obvious point without some kind of jostle of the brain. This has nothing to do with intelligence but rather is the way the brain works best, which is through indirection. I remember a section of Annie Dillard's book, PILGRIM AT TINKER CREEK, where Annie (I mean, Professor Dillard-- she corrected me one time when she was teaching at Wesleyan University) is examining one square yard of grass, or one square foot, or one square inch-- don't know which. She examines the same patch every day, but it's never the same. She finds new organisms and new patterns of life. Well, some new organisms may have crept in during the night, but most often, the life forms she's watching were there all along-- she just didn't see them!

This question of leg extension in relationship to racket drop has been discussed extensively by Chet Murphy, Vic Braden, Geoff Williams and everybody else forever and ever. Geoff recently was recommending a straightening of the legs first and then the racket drop, I believe, which suggested to me that the reflexiveness of racket drop might be in relation to various upper body rotations rather than to leg drive. Chet Murphy is especially good on the need for on court experimentation with this stuff. And Braden always came down on the side of late leg drive, yes, about at the time of contact, even bracketing it perhaps. That certainly might help someone who was pulling the spin down to cure that particular malady.

I go with Chet Murphy: Lots of experiments with no fixed idea permitted ever.

[10splayer]

are you able to stop frame his serve???

it looks to me that he is going up (leg drive) as the racquet is going down
this the proper timing so the upward thrust aids the racquet drop

.

i recently had a 3-D analysis done by brian and worked with him and macci

what they had me do was start in trophy position toss and try to get the timing down serving like that
i had other issues with my serve swing but ive been practicing that for 2 weeks now and my serve feels "heavier" to me and im told by the people i play with regularly it seems to have more action

i went back at your second posting of his serve
at about 8 seconds into the clip you can see that he is very close to having his legs fully extended so he is not far off on his timing

but if you look at his contact point its behind the baseline
not good
if you look at his left arm its not straight up
not good

You're right, the leg drive is beginning as the racquet starts to drop, but the two are not beginning and ending at the same time. (same duration) It certainly seems to me, that the legs are still driving in the upward swing. The so called kinetic chain does not channel energy at the speed of light, and so the leg drive must be complete and coincide with the bottom of the drop.

Just my 02 cents.

[latreille]

Biomotion tennis

Hi

about technical video analysis , we have created Biomotion Tennis , to help players and coaches to improv the technique of the players at all level

I work in UK ,( have worked as Technical director the RPT ) and have developed Biomotion tennis with Alex Heavy ( argentinian coach , who work with ATP Players in Argentina, Alex is specialised in Biomecanic for tennis )

we will propose to analyse the strokes of players filmed by Coaches or themself or in Uk I can come and film in HD and High speed camera

we will propose soon a webpage for this
Biomotion tennis is about explaining motor learning and learning skills and how to accelerate the learning system by breaking doan every shots in 8 Fundamentals body motion based on the Pros players parts and intensive use of video analyse for coaches and players

if you like more info
read the articles we publish in

https://www.segundosaque.com

cheers
Yves Latreille
email
latreille.yves@wanadoo.fr

[llll]

I learnt an amazing thing this week after emailing B Gordan about G's serve. It appears the main problem with G's serve lies in the leg drive. He doesn't come out of the leg drive (feet leaving the ground) until very near the contact point. The feet should be leaving the ground as the swing reaches the end of it's backswing (and the racket drop). I was staggered to realise that the feet on top players leave the ground so early, see here

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdSide2.mov

If you toggle thru the clip and freeze it where Pete's feet leave the ground, then notice where the racket is at that point.

Funny how I can watch these clips so many times yet not notice these things. Am I just thick or does anyone else have my problem?

G has to start coordinating the leg drive with his swing, and to perfection if he is to have a good serve.

My question is this: How?

1. Shall I merely encourage G to go up to the ball sooner in his swing?

2. Or does anyone know a teaching trick to facilitate this process?

Let me know if you have any tips to help

are you able to stop frame his serve???
it looks to me that he is going up (leg drive) as the racquet is going down
this the proper timing so the upward thrust aids the racquet drop.

i recently had a 3-D analysis done by brian and worked with him and macci

what they had me do was start in trophy position toss and try to get the timing down serving like that
i had other issues with my serve swing but ive been practicing that for 2 weeks now and my serve feels "heavier" to me and im told by the people i play with regularly it seems to have more action

i went back at your second posting of his serve
at about 8 seconds into the clip you can see that he is very close to having his legs fully extended so he is not far off on his timing

but if you look at his contact point its behind the baseline
not good
if you look at his left arm its not straight up
not good

[stotty]

Leg Drive

I learnt an amazing thing this week after emailing B Gordan about G's serve. It appears the main problem with G's serve lies in the leg drive. He doesn't come out of the leg drive (feet leaving the ground) until very near the contact point. The feet should be leaving the ground as the swing reaches the end of it's backswing (and the racket drop). I was staggered to realise that the feet on top players leave the ground so early, see here

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdSide2.mov

If you toggle thru the clip and freeze it where Pete's feet leave the ground, then notice where the racket is at that point.

Funny how I can watch these clips so many times yet not notice these things. Am I just thick or does anyone else have my problem?

G has to start coordinating the leg drive with his swing, and to perfection if he is to have a good serve.

My question is this: How?

1. Shall I merely encourage G to go up to the ball sooner in his swing?

2. Or does anyone know a teaching trick to facilitate this process?

Let me know if you have any tips to help

[tennis_chiro]

Try side by side

G models his serve in Federer. His drooped racket starting position is similar to Fed and, of course, the similarity ends there.

The two initiating moves you suggest are merely choice and probably neither has benefit above the other. Or at least that's is what I feel.

For me, the trick now is give G more rhythm...and to get him to ease effectively into a loaded position. At the moment the downward swing is too quick and doesn't allow him to store elastic energy at the critical point. I want a slow "Newcomber style" build up and then BANG....

Stotty,
If you set him up side by side with the same view at regular speed of Federer, you should be able to show him that the first 6" to 12" of his motion is much quicker than Federer, especially the right hand.

don

[stotty]

My question is this. As you notice in the video, G's first move is to shift his weight from the left foot to the right foot and he does it by moving noticeably backwards. He even pulls his racquet in the same direction with his hand. My question is...is it more proper to shift the weight by making a horizontal move from front to back or is it better to shift it by making a slightly downward movement first (down together) and then lifting (up together) while turning the shoulders? Or is it a combination of making the two moves together creating a synergistic effect?

G models his serve in Federer. His drooped racket starting position is similar to Fed and, of course, the similarity ends there.

The two initiating moves you suggest are merely choice and probably neither has benefit above the other. Or at least that's is what I feel.

For me, the trick now is give G more rhythm...and to get him to ease effectively into a loaded position. At the moment the downward swing is too quick and doesn't allow him to store elastic energy at the critical point. I want a slow "Newcomber style" build up and then BANG....

[don_budge]

The ultimate personal indulgence...

Practice, practice, practice.

I have just quoted myself...that's weird. The ultimate personal literary indulgence. I don't know whether to congratulate myself or impale myself on my racquet. I pardon myself.

Anyways...this is an interesting video and it raises an interesting question.

My question is this. As you notice in the video, G's first move is to shift his weight from the left foot to the right foot and he does it by moving noticeably backwards. He even pulls his racquet in the same direction with his hand. My question is...is it more proper to shift the weight by making a horizontal move from front to back or is it better to shift it by making a slightly downward movement first (down together) and then lifting (up together) while turning the shoulders? Or is it a combination of making the two moves together creating a synergistic effect?

My initial feelings are that simpler is better. Less movement means less possible sources of error or miscalculation...in the wind or under pressure, for instance. Perhaps aiming is more precise with less movement as well. Think "Zen in the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.

From tennisplayer video...Sampras and Gonzales seem to make very little horizontal shift, while Federer and Becker seem to have a bit of this lateral movement characteristic of their motions. McEnroe's movement is really interesting because of his "tightrope balancing act" of a service setup position.

Regarding G...there is no downward move even with his tossing hand, which is curved inwards in the beginning and then manipulated to turn in the proper position during the toss btw, this is an indication, I believe, that he is not set up correctly to make the first move downward which may contribute to the perceived lack of rhythm...which may contribute to lack of power and spin, which were the original perceived deficiencies in his motion. In my opinion, there is no problem with his "racquet drop"...the loop that the racquet head creates behind his back is more than adequate. But that being said, even his drop might improve with a little more "down and up" movement. Great motion for a 13 year old, though!

The set up position for the serve rarely gets the attention it deserves. Too much is left up to individual interpretation which would account for many of the "funny" motions we see even on the pro tour. In golf, set up is everything...well at least it is a good beginning. The golf swing and the tennis serve are chain reaction movements and if you do not begin in the proper position you will have to make compensating moves...which are often the "Kiss of Death".

Down, lift and turn...with some allowances for individual interpretation. Sort of like "staying in the barrel" in golfspeak. Oh no, did I just answer my own question?

[don_budge]

Practice.

Practice, practice, practice.

[llll]

Thanks for all your tips, everyone!

Here's G (aged 13) serving this morning. The ball toss is higher. The left arm is more extended upwards. He is trying to reach up more on contact.

Notice any improvement?

Westcoast, not sure what you mean by subpar racket drop. I always thought the r/drop was fine. Am I missing something?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTenni.../0/6K_EaJvUFI4

still think his left arm could be pointing more up to the sky to stretch his left side more

[tennis_chiro]

Improving

Thanks for all your tips, everyone!

Here's G (aged 13) serving this morning. The ball toss is higher. The left arm is more extended upwards. He is trying to reach up more on contact.

Notice any improvement?

Westcoast, not sure what you mean by subpar racket drop. I always thought the r/drop was fine. Am I missing something?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTenni.../0/6K_EaJvUFI4

I'd say it's developing nicely.
don

[stotty]

Thanks for all your tips, everyone!

Here's G (aged 13) serving this morning. The ball toss is higher. The left arm is more extended upwards. He is trying to reach up more on contact.

Notice any improvement?

Westcoast, not sure what you mean by subpar racket drop. I always thought the r/drop was fine. Am I missing something?

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTennisexpert#p/a/u/0/6K_EaJvUFI4