John Newcombe on the toss....

[gzhpcu]

I found this in one of my old tennis books....



He says the toss should be well in front of the body and not to the side. Says the picture to the left is correct, the toss in the picture to the right, incorrect.

Today, seems like all say it should be to the side, with the ball traveling over in an arc. Which is undoubtedly more difficult it seems to me...

[don_budge]

Where?

...are the pictures? Phil?

[gzhpcu]

Don't you see it?

[tennis_chiro]

It's the shoulder turn

I found this in one of my old tennis books....



He says the toss should be well in front of the body and not to the side. Says the picture to the left is correct, the toss in the picture to the right, incorrect.

Today, seems like all say it should be to the side, with the ball traveling over in an arc. Which is undoubtedly more difficult it seems to me...

Newcombe is right: the ball should not be hit to the right. But it should be released on that right to left arc to further coil and turn the shoulders away from the net.

don

[gzhpcu]

Yes, we know that the ball lands a bit to the left of the front foot, but Newcombe is talking about the toss and not the impact point.

[gzhpcu]

What is being said here....
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_3.html

[tennis_chiro]

???

What is being said here....
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_3.html

Naturally, I think we are basically in agreement here,

for a diversion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

I like most of Mr. Pappas's Revolutionary Tennis, but I heartily disagree if he is saying that Gonzales does not swing his toss hand to somewhere between the net post on the right and the baseline, creating a right to left arc of the toss, and coiling his shoulders a little more. No, he does not swing the hand behind the baseline. For me, that is a problem, although you will occasionally see it. Pappas seems to be railing against the standards put forward by Braden and Groppel while at the same time basically agreeing with them.

But overall, he seems to have a nice site with some great information. Try the "water in the cup" toss drill. That's a great one.

don

[gzhpcu]

When I was a kid, Lou Costello would invite a number of us kids over to his home to watch some of his old movies. Lou was a very warm-hearted guy, and he and Abbott a riot to watch...

[gzhpcu]

Forgetting Abbott and Costello for a moment... here is a Newcombe vs Laver clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q13_...2DF70DBC12917F

[don_budge]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Naturally, I think we are basically in agreement here,

I like most of Mr. Pappas's Revolutionary Tennis, but I heartily disagree if he is saying that Gonzales does not swing his toss hand to somewhere between the net post on the right and the baseline, creating a right to left arc of the toss, and coiling his shoulders a little more.

I get lost in the rain of thought of others at times...but this picture is worth a thousand words, if it isn't lying.

This is an age old mystery. Just like...is the glass half full or half empty? How to deliver the ball to the proper position in order to transfer the most potential energy from your body, mind, soul and racquet into the ball. I have this one student, a young man named Olof...6'3" tall and what an incredible tennis body he has, but he cannot get the ball into the perfect position for the life of him. Part of it is he is trying to "hit" the ball too hard so that all of his concentration is focused on the tremendous blow to the ball he is trying to deliver. He lacks focus on the left side of the service action...or he is distracted from it.

This picture that you, Phil, posted yesterday set off a startling white light in my tennis teacher brain so I set off to the club with a "new" idea for my student. Considering that the picture is probably vintage 1969 it is not exactly new...nor is anything under the sun for that matter, we cannot recreate The Beatles, for instance. Catch my drift...bottle. But, be that as it may...my student forgot his tennis shoes yesterday. He wears the same size as me but I thought about a lesson that good old Sam Snead recommended. He recommended practicing the golf swing in your bare feet and I thought to myself..."Well the serve is an upside down golf swing...why not?" These are the things that make a tennis teacher a genius. On their good days.

So we headed over to the old wall board to try to solve this problem of the toss or perhaps we should call it a "lift". Olof had on a pair of very flimsy canvas shoes which effectively left him bare foot on the pavement. The lesson unfolded with a life of its own...as the best lessons do.

First of all, I instructed him that he was not to swing so hard, to not hit the ball so hard, in order to not damage his flimsy shoes. This was a good starting point because just like a good golf swing, a nice rhythmic relaxed swing creates a nice tempo to deliver the racquet head to the ball with maximum efficiency. Gonzales comes to mind. Remember the rollercoaster theory? Then on to the picture of Newcombe and trying to decipher which is the correct method. I have believed that the one on the left is the correct but Olof has developed the habit of "creating a right to left arc of the toss" with his left hand, and sometimes his toss is so wild that it lands up to a meter behind him.

OK...so borrowing a concept from Ben Hogan...who in his five "anything but easy" lessons on the golf swing advocates the concept of the plane in his model. I attempted to do the same with Olof and he seemed to be rather receptive to the idea. He is an exceptionally bright kid. So we proceeded like this...with the line of the shoulders pointing to the right, the initial move or motion of the serve is that everything makes a bit of a downward dip towards the earth, together. Both hands, body, legs and following dutifully...the racquet. Down together. And then as we rise out of this dip we try to create the same plane that Newcombe has created in the picture on the left. Up together. The throwing arm, the shoulders and body and the racquet arm all in the same plane in order to deliver the ball forward into the court with a lifting motion and not swinging the ball in an arc and tossing it...which is more difficult to control.

In the service starting position, where the hand holding the ball is supporting the racquet...we can make a good start of things if we place this hand precisely below the spot where we are trying to deliver the toss... the spot where we are hoping that the whole thing is going to climax, up at contact point. Racquet, meet ball. This hand is actually going to hold its position in time and space throughout the dipping motion and until the shoulders and the body have squared themselves into the same plane as we rise out of the dip, so the natural thing to do is deliver the ball by lifting it into the court with a straight forward motion. The arms are actually simultaneously lifting themselves up and away from the body. Down together, up together. It's a simple thing, isn't it, Stotty?

Thanks for the "idea" Phil. Excellent topic for a thread...let's not let this one go to the dogs...or to the movies for that matter. Unless of course, there is a point to it. I love how you reset the moment with the Laver vs. Newcombe clip. Fascinating story about Lou, though. Yea, you gotta like Abbot and Costello...what's not to like?

The combination of my student forgetting his shoes and the use of "plane" theory created the impetus of a rather interesting lesson, using the wall to teach the serve. And there is another "new" and "creative" idea...borrow some stuff from the golfers...because as we all know, that is those of us that have "mastered" both games...TENNIS IS GOLF ON THE RUN!

I told you that a picture is worth a thousand words. Those pictures of Newcombe and Laver were beauties too. White clothes, white balls, a Slazenger, a Dunlop. Two gentlemen trying to castrate each other. Sweet poetry in motion. Classic tennis! Be still my beating heart.

Hey...worldsbestcoach! You've been awfully quiet lately. Hope all is well!

[bottle]

"in order to not damage his flimsy shoes." I like that.

[tennis_chiro]

Don't do as I say; do as I do!

Forgetting Abbott and Costello for a moment... here is a Newcombe vs Laver clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q13_...2DF70DBC12917F

Newcombe may be advocating the arm straight in front in his book, but when I look at that video, it sure looks to me like he is tossing in an arc from right to left.

don