About statements of John Yandell

[nabrug]

I should probably post this as a separate thread, but am doing so here since all the context is here.

To nabrug: I am trying to understand where you are going, since you seem to be on the verge of making a very important point. Are you saying that the myriad of complex movements that constitute a serve are interesting but unimportant for instructional purposes because most of them are consequences of something more fundamental and simpler? Like the inner method you are alluding to? If so, could you give a broad indication (if not details) of what the fundamental principle might encompass - for example, is it an aspect of body kinetics, or a goal in the sense of the GBA method? Thanks.

If you take your job serious as a teacher you have to look for the inner system of strokes. You have to research this "very complex interplay of movements" and find models to translate these relationships to really create "the" feeling. If you only use caracteristics you leave it up to the talent of the student.

The caracteristics are very important for the teacher. Although the GBA first looks at what the student now can do with the ball in the same game situation. But the caracteristics are important to check if there is room for improvement/development. But unimportant for instructional purposes in the way John Yandell described. Maybe it works for beginners. But I am talking about transferring the pro techniques to elite players. I wouldn't call it simpler.

I call it the inner system as the opposite of the outer caracteristics. But I thought the description of John was excellent. "Second there is a very complex interplay of movements that creates that speed in that fraction of a second, movements that include the upper arm, the elbow, the forearm, the shoulder and the wrist. These body segments are all moving at the same time, and also changing shapes and positional relationships with each other.
You can forget about seeing all that accurately with the naked eye." It says it all.
Where you ever curious why somebody could throw a ball much faster than an other person? They roughly have the same caracteristics. I am convinced that the one had the talent or by coincedence (!) found the right way to find the perfect interaction pattern. So yes I think it is about body kinetics. (The inner system of stroke production is the sum of the relationships which parts of the body must have. Actions of parts of the body must be synchronised and/or flow out of each other. In nowadays tennis the inner system for the groundstrokes, smash and service is a push-in-push system. This principle follows the kinetic chain. From the ground up and from the inside to the outside like tennis teachers learn in their education. This stays like it is. Only that does not mean that the inner system follows the kinetic chain step by step. The inner system, derived from the pro’s, showed me that there must occur synchronisations/connections of lower and higher body parts. By “skipping” some bodyparts the kinetic chain gets faster because the transfer is directer.)

The Game Based Approach is not a method. It is the approach of the ITF and all the national tennis commitees in almost all countries. In Europe I know that coaches at all levels must be trained in this way nowadays. The basic fundament of GBA is the change from seeing tennis from a closed skill sport to an open skill sport. In short the GBA looks at much more than the technique alone. It really changed view in a very positive way.

The inner system of tennis is my invention and ofcourse based upon The Inner Game of tennis (Although I disagree with most of the book). It has nothing to do with GBA.

[GeoffWilliams]

When you look at top servers, in the same progressed state, same pics, at simultaneous positions, they are sometimes similar and sometimes very different! Sampras was similar to Becker, in toss height, toss in a J form, from the crotch, and similar in body pos. at contact: head almost parallel to the ground, and pronation/string bed facing the side fence. Sampras was as much as 4' out in front of baseline, while Becker was 2-2.5' Fed is only at 1' out front. Rear leg kick back: similar, with Fed and Raonic far out to the rear, while Sampras/Becker hardly at all. HIgh elbow: Raonic. Most dynamic movement: Raonic. Rhythm: Sampras. Simplest: Fed. Deepest knee bend: Becker, and so on. All share one item: delayed drop until after leg drive.

[tennisplayer]

Nabrug, I think I understand what you are saying - that basically, there is more to learning how to execute a stroke than just copying the external movements of an accomplished pro. Even high speed photography cannot tell us how the internal components such as kinetic links are interacting, and what kind of feeling it produces in the player. I agree with this - although I think high speed photography does reveal some things that are hidden otherwise, and gives us some valuable clues. You make a very good point. Also thanks for clarifying what GBA is.

[tennis_chiro]

Technician vs GBA

Nabrug,
I for one, am one who knows he gets too wrapped up in technique. However, I do believe it is helpful. But at some point, I know I have to step away and even the player has to step away and get out of his own way and let his own innate instincts take over. But, if we force everyone to reinvent the wheel, we would still be riding horse drawn carriages.

I don't quite understand the GBA approach. I do know the rest of the world does better than the US because their players play more and drive each other higher (rather than ducking competition for whatever reason). But can you just give me a simple example of how you would help your player using GBA approach. Let's take something simpler than hitting a serve.

Lets say you have an elite player who plays very well, but has a weakness on wide balls to his forehand. And he doesn't know how to hit the wide ball with an open stance. (I know this would not happen in Europe, but let's just say you had a player that was so schooled by some foolish old school coach that he always set up and stepped in to his forehand, ...except he was running out of time on the wide balls.) And you think he would do better if he was able to hit, at least the wide balls, with an open stance. How would you go about trying to show this player how to hit this shot? Remember, his habit is to get the right foot out and planted and step in with the left foot, even if it messes him up.

I would show him the footwork. Get him to try it slowly. Then give him an opportunity to gradually do it under more and more stress, trying to show him he could pick up time in his recovery by hitting the shot with an open stance.

How would you do this in a GBA approach?

don

[sfrazeur]

The game based approach is best the way to start players out and teaching less interested/motivated players more strategic play. GBA being focused on getting a player to understand how to play the game first (giving them a basic set of proper strokes) and then giving them the relevant tools to play "better."

A player can learn a great, but basic, basic low-to-high groundstrokes with forearm pronation or "wind-shield wiper" forehand through the game based approach. I do this with my Adult QuickStart and Kids (entry level) Quickstart programs. However, high level strokes have to be perfected with one-on-one "model focused" drilling. If anyone knows how to do it otherwise, please share!

A good instructor can show a player how to preform and progressively drill a student on creating advanced elements in their strokes. A great instructor can find a way to interest most students into preforming and improving. May that be by finding a way to make a drill more fun and engaging or motivating a player to drive themselves.

-Shaun

[tennisplayer]

Don, I believe that in GBA, tactics have as big a role as strokes do in player development. In the US, I believe player development is very technique oriented, at least, for a long time until the player gets to a fairly high level. So I would expect that GBA will not have a solution any different than yours for the problem you have posed - but I will let nabrug provide the authoritative response.

[nabrug]

When you look at top servers, in the same progressed state, same pics, at simultaneous positions, they are sometimes similar and sometimes very different! Sampras was similar to Becker, in toss height, toss in a J form, from the crotch, and similar in body pos. at contact: head almost parallel to the ground, and pronation/string bed facing the side fence. Sampras was as much as 4' out in front of baseline, while Becker was 2-2.5' Fed is only at 1' out front. Rear leg kick back: similar, with Fed and Raonic far out to the rear, while Sampras/Becker hardly at all. HIgh elbow: Raonic. Most dynamic movement: Raonic. Rhythm: Sampras. Simplest: Fed. Deepest knee bend: Becker, and so on. All share one item: delayed drop until after leg drive.

I don't know excactly where you are going?

Your descriptions say to me that if you teach with caracteristics it is even harder to do. Because which caracteristics do you choose? (For me they all share the same inner system. Wouldn't it be ideal to teach that and than let the player find his own personal form?)

Let's assume they all share delayed drop until after leg drive. But what does that say and what do you do with that assumption. Will it give the pro serve racket and arm action? Kerry Mitchell has a good drop but he doesn't have the arm and racket action of the pro's. I was never able to perform a service with the image of the racketdrop in my head. I was focussing on the drop so much that it disturbed everything else. Could you do it? Now I think to give that advice to students is even doing more damage than good. The drop is only a caracteristic of the upward action of the wrist. It is much more helpfull to explain that upward motion.

[nabrug]

Nabrug, I think I understand what you are saying - that basically, there is more to learning how to execute a stroke than just copying the external movements of an accomplished pro. Even high speed photography cannot tell us how the internal components such as kinetic links are interacting, and what kind of feeling it produces in the player. I agree with this - although I think high speed photography does reveal some things that are hidden otherwise, and gives us some valuable clues. You make a very good point. Also thanks for clarifying what GBA is.

The high speed photography is essential. It gave me essential clues. So the work of John Yandell and others is essential. Because that gave me the opportunity to study these inner processes. But I think it is wrong to see it as the end of a process. I see it as the beginning.

[nabrug]

About GBA

Sorry guys but this thread is not about GBA. Go to the ITFiCoach website and you find a lot of videoworkshops and articles about GBA. Do a search on GBA and you find numerous hits. For kids do a search for Mike Barell, evolve9. For doubles Louis Cayer. Just to name a few.

I can not explain GBA in three words. But:
- it is not a method like Oscar Wegner
- it is not a method based on games. (Yes I know the word game is in GBA)
- it is even more important for coaches of the highest levels
- you can also train people without GBA. It has been done. It will be done.
- it is not a magic formula. you still have to train hard. And it is still on a tennis court with drills etc..
- technique is as important as it used to be
- it broadens the view what actually happens in a tennis match. F.i. we saw tennis mainly as hitting the ball. GBA developed methods to understand the "reception" phase in an open skill sport.

The initial GBA course I got lasted a year. And it took me two more years to get it into my fingers.
Although I had the same reservations like I think you have it has really broadened my mind. I sometimes explain it like this. If a certain student, named R. Nadal came to you around ten years ago. Would you have changed his forehand? So what with this new kid, named Rafer Naderer, who before every forehand turns three times, flips his racket twice but has a very consistent Fh in all game situations with good pace and everything would you nurture that or are you going to change him?

[gzhpcu]

The inner system of tennis is my invention and ofcourse based upon The Inner Game of tennis (Although I disagree with most of the book). It has nothing to do with GBA.

Your system is based on a book you mostly disagree with?

[nabrug]

Nabrug,
I for one, am one who knows he gets too wrapped up in technique. However, I do believe it is helpful. But at some point, I know I have to step away and even the player has to step away and get out of his own way and let his own innate instincts take over. But, if we force everyone to reinvent the wheel, we would still be riding horse drawn carriages.

That is excactly the point in GBA. If we can help the student more in what actually happens in a tennis match the student doesn't have to reinvent this.

(I know this would not happen in Europe)

Can we stop with these childish ego things? My only goal is to be the best teacher as I can get. Self reflection is the hardest part of all. To create a teachers attitude that one answer creates ten new questions. I state facts that nowadays in Europe you will learn the GBA approach. And that is a good thing. That doesn't mean that we have a magic wand in Europe. If I look back five years ago I sometimes get embaressed of what I did. And five years from now it will be the same about this period. But that is not the point. The point is that you are open to changes

Lets say you have an elite player who plays very well, but has a weakness on wide balls to his forehand. And he doesn't know how to hit the wide ball with an open stance. And you think he would do better if he was able to hit, at least the wide balls, with an open stance. How would you go about trying to show this player how to hit this shot? Remember, his habit is to get the right foot out and planted and step in with the left foot, even if it messes him up.

Imo if you are really convinced that this is whitholding this student from the next level you have to change this with every means you have.

But in my training years they threw at us that Steffi Graf won all her titles with a slice backhand. So why the absolute need to teach a topspin backhand to everyone? What does this student really wants to do. My task is to "listen" to his body. I personally never had the experience that footwork was really the issue. Most of the time there were reception related issues. And although part of the reception is Ball Reaching Footwork (besides Field Defending Footwork) the footwork followed the main issue. When I see Ferrer playing I see footwork that follows his intention with the shots in the given game situations.
That is why Mike Barell developed Evolve9. He says you need to develop these reception skills from the youngest age possible. He would maybe say that you are too late with your player. He will never gain the experience needed to compete at the highest level.

Maybe what you see is the negative outcome of a former coach who persisted that this was the only way. How to untrain this? Maybe offer him various footworkpatterns in a very open way. The final goal is that his body must pick the footwork pattern which suits him. Not the coach and also not the rational mind of the player himself.

And than for the arrogant part. The game situation you describe is the classical game situation to outplay your opponent also at the highest levels. Did you ever notice that the higher you come in the top 50 you can't outplay players that way. Well I did. It was the start for me to look for the model of the groundstrokes. I found "a" model which explains the groundstrokes in general. And especially the different inner systems of the highest ranked players. In short there are three principles of correlations in all the different game situations. For me it is roughly clear that the higher the player the more principles he uses in more game situations.
Without seeing your student I assume he uses two directions. He wants to come "behind" the ball and than hit the ball with an arm and racket action with a 90 degree angle from his Ball Reaching Footwork. The elite pro's use other directions (You can sail against the wind). That is why Nadal and the others cover at least 1,5 meters more than not top 100 players from side line to side line!

[nabrug]

Technicians vs GBA

The comparison is invalid. Technique in GBA maybe has an even greater role. Besides knowledge of the "best" techniques you also have to know much more how they can evolve from level to level, from child to adult, from person to person.

[nabrug]

Your system is based on a book you mostly disagree with?

The name is based on the the title of maybe the most well-known book in tennis.

How is the serve doing?

[gzhpcu]

The name is based on the the title of maybe the most well-known book in tennis.

How is the serve doing?

I have Tim Gallwey's book. Working on the serve....

[tennis_chiro]

Thanks for the response, Nabrug. I'll have to check out a little more about GBA on iCoach and the other sites you mentioned. The player I mentioned was strictly hypothetical. I was not being facetious about the hypothetical case not happening in Europe, primarily because of the preponderance of red clay and models playing on red clay.

My approach is to try different things to get a player (at any level) to experience what it feels like to hit a good shot, to recognize that it was a good shot and then to help them establish keys that enable them to reproduce that good shot. If there is a habit in the way of the student being able to achieve that, then I try to "intervene". The earlier they are in their development, the more I want them to "try" some of the things I see as essential.

What little I have seen of Quickstart tennis, mostly on video, convinces me that organizations and associations that totally adopt the QuickStart system including using it in tournament format are going to dominate those that fail to do so. At the same time, I see so many kids developing successful styles for younger age divisions without developing the fundamental ability to hit through the ball; I think it takes a greater degree of structured intervention to foster development of those kinds of principles in basic strokes.

don