Questions for Kerry Mitchell - The Serve part 1

[nabrug]

The right fundamentals - The learning phase

One very important aspect in teaching the right fundamentals of every stroke is that there is a strong hierarchie of teaching what when.

Every part of a pro serve is important. You can not miss one part. But the racket action is the most important part to teach. Because it is the first thing you have to teach and every other aspect must in the end be related to this aspect. On the ITF website Steven Martens explains this thoroughly.

In other words you start from the action with the racket closest to the ball. And than work your way from that place. I mention this because at instructional movies almost all of them start the other way around.

So in this thread and the underlying article the racket and arm action are imo the most important fundamental. Why not tell how the pro's finish like they do?

[johnyandell]

Guys,

Here's a Gonzalez video with a long followthrough:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeCourtlevelSide.mov

Obviously, there are many different opinions on the followthrough, what it means, and how to teach it. I think Kerry's explanation about how first to develop acceleration and fluidity are great. It's an article remember on what to teach to players struggling with the serve. And the fundamentals are very sound. In my opinion the other followthroughs are going to be consequences of what the player is trying to do with the ball. And will evolve later on, it the player goes that way.

Others are free to disagree. If Kerry ever wishes to do an article on variations in speed and spin on the serve, we'll publish it.

John Yandell

[kerrymitchell]

Naburg,
Unfortunately, I'm a purist. I find it very hard to let players serve with anything else than a continental grip (especially when I see them in matches double faulting once or twice a game). When a player comes to me and wants to add power to their serve, it is impossible to do that with a western grip and be consistent.
As for Gonzales' serve and follow through the clip John has supplied comes closer to my model (right hand on his left hip and the racket head past the hip). If you watch the second serve you're right that the arm does stop earlier, but there is a reason and that has to do with the feet restrictions (at that time--no jumping) and the fact that he served and volleyed most of the time. He is pushing forward with his right hip (leg) a bit to get a jump at getting to the net quickly. This action (right hip motion) restricts the arm from finishing when trying to create spin (topspin). If he tried to finish completely here, he would hit himself in the left shin. I've seen this many times with club players. The hip rotation comes too early causing the racket to hit the left shin. On the first serve (john's version) the arm can pass by the left leg because the swing pattern in much more forward towards the net (creating less spin--slice).
I think we will have to disagree on the follow through aspect. Yes, you can match what the pros do, but to get there, what happens in the motion before this is crucial. The follow through will match your vision when the rest of it is correct.
One more thing, the video of me serving not moving my feet in the article is an exercise more about balance than anything else.
Good luck,
Kerry.

[gzhpcu]

The disadvantage I see of a big follow through is that the server might not be ready to respond quickly enough to a good return of serve...

[nabrug]

I wasn't trying to get in on your discussion...I hadn't even read your comments about the follow through. Now I have read them...and I am still not sure what it is you are getting at...what's more I don't care. The above is the comment I specifically made about the follow through which was completely independent of whatever it was you were responding to....and I stand by it.

!

This is a forum. You know that don't you. I opened a thread. You are free not to enter. But you did. Is it so stupid from me to assume that you had read my first post? What kind of person are you to not even have the decency to read it. It wasn't that long. And than you just hijack a thread and say you even don't care. But you just make your independent statement. I even wasn't attacking your statement but you want me to know that you stand by it. And you are the one who felt offended that Soderling didn't answer your letter.


And by the way you can't read. You don't have to side with anybody because I was mainly asking questions. So there are no sides!

[gzhpcu]

I think it is safe to say that in most cases top pros, past and present, rarely had a long follow through. There must be a reason. IMHO, it is what I have said earlier: hitting up results in the arm braking, the elbow remaining high after impact (see my Gonzales photo), which slows down the followthrough, as opposed to hitting forward, which would result in a longer followthrough. Probably controversial, but seems logical to me...
Look at the Don Budge serve in the stroke archive, it was already the case in the 40's... or any of the modern players...

[stroke]

Naburg,
Unfortunately, I'm a purist. I find it very hard to let players serve with anything else than a continental grip (especially when I see them in matches double faulting once or twice a game). When a player comes to me and wants to add power to their serve, it is impossible to do that with a western grip and be consistent.
As for Gonzales' serve and follow through the clip John has supplied comes closer to my model (right hand on his left hip and the racket head past the hip). If you watch the second serve you're right that the arm does stop earlier, but there is a reason and that has to do with the feet restrictions (at that time--no jumping) and the fact that he served and volleyed most of the time. He is pushing forward with his right hip (leg) a bit to get a jump at getting to the net quickly. This action (right hip motion) restricts the arm from finishing when trying to create spin (topspin). If he tried to finish completely here, he would hit himself in the left shin. I've seen this many times with club players. The hip rotation comes too early causing the racket to hit the left shin. On the first serve (john's version) the arm can pass by the left leg because the swing pattern in much more forward towards the net (creating less spin--slice).
I think we will have to disagree on the follow through aspect. Yes, you can match what the pros do, but to get there, what happens in the motion before this is crucial. The follow through will match your vision when the rest of it is correct.
One more thing, the video of me serving not moving my feet in the article is an exercise more about balance than anything else.
Good luck,
Kerry.

I think Kerry did a very nice instructional piece on the serve. I think he is spot on about not moving the feet in his serve video to let us see the nuts and bolts of the motion. It is much easier for a knowledgeable pro such as Kerry to really see what somone's serve motion looks like, and the result of that serve, when one stays on balance and keeps the feet, particularly the front foot stationary. Pat Doughtery talks about basicly the same thing with his "inside the cylinder" phrase. I notice Roger F often warms up his serve with very little use of the legs.

I would be very interested to know how much more MPH's and spin Kerry can put on the ball when he serves with his full use of the legs vs the quiet feet motion he shows us in this instructional piece. I bet the result is not that much different.

[johnyandell]

Phil,

No doubt there is quite a variety of finishes among top players that are probably related to placement and spin--at least for some players. Not to say that isn't true. But there are probably as many or more clips in our archive where the racket hand passes in front of the left leg and is also close to same on the serve varieties. I think what Kerry is arguing is that by exaggerating that long fluid finish, many players benefit and get fuller more relaxed motions with more acceleration.

JY

[kerrymitchell]

Thanks John you're right on.
The difference in acceleration when I use my legs as opposed to staying stationary is more, obviously, but I can't say for sure how much without using a radar gun. I can hit with a fair amount of velocity standing still because I have a fairly free arm swing. I used to pitch in baseball as a teenager which helped be develop a bit of a "live arm". I use this technique (stationary feet) with a lot of servers to increase the independence of the arm before moving onto the use of the legs. I feel this independence of arm is very important in the learning process of a good serve.

[10splayer]

Thanks John you're right on.
The difference in acceleration when I use my legs as opposed to staying stationary is more, obviously, but I can't say for sure how much without using a radar gun. I can hit with a fair amount of velocity standing still because I have a fairly free arm swing. I used to pitch in baseball as a teenager which helped be develop a bit of a "live arm". I use this technique (stationary feet) with a lot of servers to increase the independence of the arm before moving onto the use of the legs. I feel this independence of arm is very important in the learning process of a good serve.

Interesting topic. I've always felt the legs could really improve efficiency in generating racquet head speed (along with increasing contact height), but that it had the potential (if incorrectly sequenced) to decrease it.

[nabrug]

Because I get no answers to my questions and everyone is so sure about themselves I end with a last post about the serve motion from Kerry Mitchell, Jeff Greenwald and Paul Goldstein.

You can make zillions of different movements with an arm and a racket. For arguments sake let’s say that around a thousand of these combined movements can lead to a valid (?!) service.

In developing players to the top we want to develop the “best” serve. I think that the pro’s show us the “best” technique.

Years ago I had the same service motion as Kerry Mitchell, Jeff Greenwald and Paul Goldstein. My serve was really good. I could hit all the spins. Good pace. No problem. So this technique is one of those 1000 ways to serve. And it gives very good results. So in the hierarchie of 1000 serves it will maybe be in the top 10 of serves. But I don’t think that you find a top 100 player with this technique. Besides an occasional miss.

Among other caracteristics I noticed a difference in the followthrough of the pro’s and started to search for the model for this kind of followthrough. I found the model 6 months ago. The model explains the serve from the pro’s. (It also explains the technique of Sampras. The technique is the same. A few angles are different.)

Now I finally begin to master the pro serve myself. It is so different from my “old” serve that it is still developing. But the basics are there. I only have to make it my serve more.

The model I found and my experience in performing the pro serve makes me very confident to say that someone with the arm and racket action like Kerry Mitchell, Jeff Greenwald and Paul Goldstein will never be able to serve like the pro’s. The motion is not even close. It will take a teacher a real long time to change it.

I can now explain a lot of differences in furious debates concerning these serves. Most of the time both sides are right because my old serve is valid as well.
I will only mention two issues in debates.
1. Like Kerry explained in my old serve the wrist followed my arm motion naturally. Now I know the wrist is active. And how it is active.
2. The use of the core is more active in my old serve than in the pro serve. The cartwheeling etc. is overrated at least in the pro serve. But I know now where opinions like that come from. (By the way one of the weak things of my old serve came from the inconsistency of the turning of the core).

Chag Sameach or Nice Eastern days to you all.

[nabrug]

For other reasons I opened the serve files of Elena Dementieva in the Stroke Archive. That says it all.

[nabrug]

Kim Clijsters (serves stroke archive) what are you doing?

[nabrug]

Ivanovic and Monfils.

With Monfils you can clearly see what core rotation you need for this kind of serve. Compare them to others and the difference is clear.

[nabrug]

The strange thing is that Monfils now is serving differently. From what year are the videoclips of him in the Strokes Archive?

On you tube you can see a young Monfils serving like the clips in the stroke archive. Now you can see the action I described.