Questions for Kerry Mitchell - The Serve part 1

[nabrug]

1.
You talked about the wrist:
"As I use the term, pronation refers to the arm and wrist rotation through the contact zone. This rotation is key to all aspects of the serve - spin, power and placement. It usually happens naturally when the correct grip is used."

Is it correct to interpret the word naturally that the wrist action is a consequence of the preceding actions? Or like so many say it is a passive or following action?

2.
Your service motion has as a caracteristic that in the end phase your rackethead is going behind your legs/body (I hope this is clear enough as a description.) You can see the same caracteristic with f.i. Jeff Greenwald or Paul Goldstein in the YOUR STROKES archive. The caracteristic of that end phase with elite players stays in front of the body.
Can you tell me why there is a difference in that end phase? Is it important?

[nabrug]

Question to Yohn Yandell

Question to Yohn Yandell

I know that Kerry Mitchell is not serving like in a match. But I think it is fair to say that his arm and racket action will be the same of what we can see in the pictures in the article.

In short you, in Visual Tennis, say that if you have the right prerequisites (in my words caracteristics) you will get the professional serve.
Does Kerry Mitchell have the right prerequisites? Racket drop etc.? Is everything there? For me you only have to focus on the arm and racket action.

[gzhpcu]

It seems to me that the finish Mitchell is showing (behind the body on the left side) is the typical finish for a slice service. The finish in front of the body is for topspin/slice...

[nabrug]

Look at my movie on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6cqVAKpOx0

And Kerry Mitchell is only showing the basic movement for a "flat" service.

[gzhpcu]

Yeah, I see what you mean...

[johnyandell]

nabrug,

I think his motion has great technical elements. I've played against him and that serve is very very tough. He won the Canadian National 45s with it. I don't necessarily believe he (or Visual Tennis) is trying to teach everyone the "pro" serve. I like the idea of the free loose swing and the exaggerated crossing followthrough, particuarly in the learning phase, which is what he is really talking about.

John Yandell

[nabrug]

John Yandell

I was under the impression that the article was ment to get as close to the pro serve as you can. (F.e. he talks about getting “the right fundamentals”. The pictures/movies in the article are all comparisons to pro serves. They show no kids.) All the Your Strokes articles are comparing all the strokes with pro’s (most of the time Federer).

You sound like a game based approach coach (scary?!). Like me. First see what the serve does at the other side of the net. Why change Boris Becker’s “strange” serve motion?

But that wasn’t the question. From a ideal technique point of view. Are all the components there? Is the “exaggerated crossing followthrough” important? Can Kerry (Paul Goldstein, Jeff Greenwald) choose how he does his followthrough? Are there any pro’s with this “exaggerated crossing followthrough”?

I thought that, in short, you say that if you have certain pro prerequisites you will have the pro stroke.

Is Kerry reading this forum? Or to put it different will he read my former questions?

[kerrymitchell]

Hi Everyone,
Kerry here.
I talk about the right fundamentals all the time whether you're a beginner or an open player. The article focus is on that aspect. The right fundamentals early on creates an more easy and quick development throughout the learning process.
1. Pronation--I usually don't use the word naturally in tennis a lot because I believe that anything you do in terms of tennis isn't natural. It is all a learned process. The pronation action does occur naturally if the throwing motion is correct. That throwing motion has to be learned. My main opposition to teaching pronation (making it more of an active response) is the wrong way to go about it. The throwing motion is the key to all in the serve in terms of achieving a good serve. The actions that occur before the pronation (rotation of the body, etc) help create the "natural response" at and through the contact.
2. I like the arm and racket finishing past the left side of the body because a lot of deceleration problems occur because the player is overly focused on the pronation aspect. To create good speed of shot and good ball rotation (spin) the racket head speed through the ball has to be maintained throughout the swing. Thus with a loose arm the arm should finish past the left side. For players who have deceleration problems this is one solution I use to get them out of it. For me, there is no difference in the finish of the swing between various types of serves (flat, slice, topspin). If a player is stopping at the top to excessively pronate than speed and spin potential are lost.
4. Looking at various past or present pros slight idiosyncratic parts of there motions doesn't take away from their core fundamentals of rotation, balance, and free arm swing. When watching videos of the pros the goal is to find the core aspects of what makes a good motion. Often the average player when watching videos focus on the wrong things missing the fundamental aspects. That's what makes John's site so valuable is not only does he show the videos, but directs the viewer to the correct fundamentals.

[nabrug]

2. I like the arm and racket finishing past the left side of the body because a lot of deceleration problems occur because the player is overly focused on the pronation aspect. To create good speed of shot and good ball rotation (spin) the racket head speed through the ball has to be maintained throughout the swing. Thus with a loose arm the arm should finish past the left side. For players who have deceleration problems this is one solution I use to get them out of it. For me, there is no difference in the finish of the swing between various types of serves (flat, slice, topspin). If a player is stopping at the top to excessively pronate than speed and spin potential are lost.
4. Looking at various past or present pros slight idiosyncratic parts of there motions doesn't take away from their core fundamentals of rotation, balance, and free arm swing. When watching videos of the pros the goal is to find the core aspects of what makes a good motion. Often the average player when watching videos focus on the wrong things missing the fundamental aspects. That's what makes John's site so valuable is not only does he show the videos, but directs the viewer to the correct fundamentals.

Thanks for answering.

From your answer I get the idea that you can choose the way you finish. (Can you show this other movement or can I see it somewhere on the web?) But you like the finish left of the body more. Can you tell me the differences?
And why is not one pro finishing like this?

[gzhpcu]

Even in the 60's, hardly anyone had the long finish to the left. Looking in the classic "Fundamentals of Tennis" by Plagenhoef, 1970, he, on page 67, has a picture of Gardner Mulloy as an example of a long service follow-through. But he is clearly the exception. All others don't have such a long follow-through.

[bottle]

But surely Kerry Mitchell's remedy for deceleration is more important than all other considerations.

[kerrymitchell]

Hi Guys,
The finish may not be quite at the extension I talk about, but what I use this for is to get players to maintain the acceleration through the contact. If you look at Roddick's arm position and racket position at the full follow through you will see that is right arm is against is stomach and his racket hand is on his left hip. Now the hand doesn't pass the hip but what happens to many players is that they stop even shorter than this to accentuate the pronation aspect. Much like ground strokes, the stroke often gets shorter when they try to add a lot of power. Power with control comes from extension not in stopping short.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andyroddick/andyroddick_serve/ar_arm_action/ar_arm_action.html?AR1stSDeuceArmActionFront1.mov

Often when a player is in the learning process, many corrections may be slight exaggerations of a perfect stroke to change some incorrect aspect of the swing. These articles are usually targeted towards the club player and not the truly advanced player or professional player. Making changes is not as easy as just watching a video and copying it because people often see different things in the same video.
Good Luck,
Kerry.

[nabrug]

That is a clear statement from someone who will take Robin Soderling to the next level. Maybe Robin will benefit if he changes to this kind of follow through.

With this classic motion...all things necessary for a great service game are possible. Spins, placement and power.

Classic? (I don't see Pancho Gonzalez finish like this). Which classis pro finished like this? Why not?

[gzhpcu]

Yes, Gonzales had a very beautiful classic serve and did not finish in this manner.

IMHO, hitting up and out leads to the elbow remaining higher after impact and inhibits the long follow through to the side.

[nabrug]

Often when a player is in the learning process, many corrections may be slight exaggerations of a perfect stroke to change some incorrect aspect of the swing. These articles are usually targeted towards the club player and not the truly advanced player or professional player. Making changes is not as easy as just watching a video and copying it because people often see different things in the same video.

I got it. The article is written to develop clubplayers. My impression was different by the way. Than why bother about the "right" fundamentals so much. Most players play at a level where the serve never will be the deciding factor. As a GBA coach I even let players serve with a western grip based on four factors. If there is consistency and the serve is not, let's say, the weakest link.

But then again. Let's get back to the highest level of serving. What is the connection with the followthroughs? My main question is can you serve with the pro followthrough?