Interactive Forum April 2011: Elena Dementieva: Forehand

[johnyandell]

Last month the new high speed footage Elena's backhand stimulated some great discussion about technique and I am hoping her forehand will do the same. As I said before, in many ways, Dementieva's technical game is closer to the male stroke models--and you can see that for sure on her forehand. Watch how far her left arm stretches across at the completion of the turn, and how her backswing stays on the right side of her body. But what about the timing of her turn and that pause at the top of the backswing? Let us know your thoughts!

Elena Dementieva: Forehand

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

Quicktime versions

Elena Dementieva: Forehand

[tennisplayer]

Elena's forehand seems to be technically perfect, to my eyes anyway. And I'm not saying that just because I'm smitten by her beauty...

One thing to note is how she chokes up on the handle just a wee bit.

[worldsbestcoach]

commented on before

I have commented on Elena's forehand before. It is somewhat inconsistent. She prepares immediately to the purported & ill-advised "power position" that is taught so much today, and used by so many pros on the circuits. I call it the backward-emphasis topspin forehand. It causes so many problems. See all my posts about it.

Also, such a forehand destroys the natural rhythm that a good forehand should have. But I agree that Elena is a stunning woman. She seems like a good person. I think she needed better coaching than she got. Most coaches do not see the flaws in her forehand or in other parts of her game. Elena finally, in her own heart, I think, realized that her game was somehow lacking enough that she would never win a major slam tournament. I am sure that she was frustrated. She seems like such a nice person.

[johnyandell]

wbc,

Can you give us an example of a player past or present who prepares the way you advise?

Thanks,

John Yandell

[blake_b]

WBC,

I agree with John. You keep talking about this ill advised power position and backward emphasize topspin forehand, and I have no idea what you are talking about. If you could reference clips in the TennisPlayer.net stroke archives that illustrate your points it would be helpful to understanding what you are saying.

Thanks,
Blake

[sfrazeur]

From my interpretation of WBC's comments, here and in the Elana backhand thread, he is saying that Elana goes too quickly through the tracking phase with the shoulder 45 degrees w/ racquet in hands to the 90 degree shoulder turn.

Please clarify.

-Shaun

[tennis_chiro]

ditto

From my interpretation of WBC's comments, here and in the Elana backhand thread, he is saying that Elana goes too quickly through the tracking phase with the shoulder 45 degrees w/ racquet in hands to the 90 degree shoulder turn.

Please clarify.

-Shaun

It doesn't seem to me that she goes to the 90 degree shoulder turn until she reaches at the last minute to the right with the left hand; and once she makes the reach with that left hand the swing is a continuous motion with no more pauses or hesitations.

don

[tennis_chiro]

In conclusion, I believe that if she initiated her forward motion with a step towards the ball, her swing would definitely carry her momentum into her shot and towards her target thereby creating a more solid, accurate and repeating motion. If she begins with a move towards the ball I would hope that her finish would be in a more balanced position in line with her shot and reduce all of the wasted energy blown on the radical finish to her left and behind her. She may sacrifice a bit of power but this will be compensated with more depth, control and hopefully...variety of shot. In tennis the real power...is control. Tennis is a game of energy...and time will never change that. The players are trying to wrestle with each other with their respective strokes and tactics, for the control of the energy in the ball. Generally speaking, the tennis player that has their own energy (physical, mental, emotional and spiritual) under control is going to triumph...everything being equal..

Don_Budge,

You have to remember, the body doesn't work with linear forces. The only thing the ball knows is the forces applied to it at the contact with the strings. The body creates those forces with pulleys and levers. While stepping into the ball may marginally increase the linear momentum of a particular strike, what it does do in a major way is set the fulcrum for the muscles of your body to pull the weight and momentum of the racket head onto a line to your target and this will increase the players ability to generate more linear momentum of the racket head toward the target. But don't make the common mistake of thinking stepping into the ball increases the "weight" of the shot by moving your weight in the direction of the target. By the time you are hitting the ball, you want your head to be still and the body to be rotating around a fulcrum that is stable. In a classic square stance, you can imagine the players body on a vertical "spit" that goes through the left shoulder, hip, knee and foot as the body rotates around that fulcrum. On an open stance, that "spit" is more likely right through the left ear and the left side of your neck and a point between your feet (right handed forehand). As you catch that ball later and more defensively, the "spit" moves to the right side of your neck or even to your right shoulder. But somehow, the body has to establish a point about to operate it's levers.

All that being said, if recovery is not a primary issue (wide balls), when you get the chance to step into a ball and take a classical stance, I think you should do it.

don

[tennisplayer]

The forehand closest to my understanding of WBC's description is similar to the one depicted in this instructional video, starting around 3:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XQrQqYS-xE

Note how the elbow stays close to the body, and the hand doesn't go behind the body (although the racquet head does). The stance is pretty open, and the non-hitting arm releases way early.

The pros seem to have more of a backward emphasis, bigger backswings, and of course, they seem to twist around much more. Also, their non-hitting arms point to the side fence for much longer.

All I can say is, the method shown in the video works very well for me, much better than the pro styles that I have been trying to copy unsuccessfully for years. I think I have been doing something like this with my 2HBH already, but I need to work on it a little more. It seems I also need to get more practice using this technique with very low balls, which do need a sideswipe kind of stroke sometimes. I truly believe WBC is on to something important.

But far be it from me to criticize pros, especially the great ones - let me make it clear that that's not my intention, and I am happy to leave that to the teaching pros here whose posts I follow avidly! I am a great believer in individual styles, and at my age, I believe I should stick with what works for me, now that I've found it!

[blake_b]

Hi Tennisplayer,

Thanks for sharing the link. It helps make the discussion a little more clear. The issue I see with the stroke presented in the video is the lack of shoulder and hip rotation. His feet are basically facing forward throughout the stroke, and the outside foot never turns towards the side fence.

Even when the pros use an open stance they get shoulder and hip rotation and the outside foot is pointed toward the side fence.

The stroke is hit almost entirely with his arm. I would think that it would lack power compared to a stroke that involves shoulder and hip rotation and leg drive.

I do like his simple back swing.

Blake

[tennisplayer]

Hi Tennisplayer,

Thanks for sharing the link. It helps make the discussion a little more clear. The issue I see with the stroke presented in the video is the lack of shoulder and hip rotation. His feet are basically facing forward throughout the stroke, and the outside foot never turns towards the side fence.

Even when the pros use an open stance they get shoulder and hip rotation and the outside foot is pointed toward the side fence.

The stroke is hit almost entirely with his arm. I would think that it would lack power compared to a stroke that involves shoulder and hip rotation and leg drive.

I do like his simple back swing.

Blake

Hi Blake, I hear you... I used to feel the same way, and posted some very similar comments as you expressing my skepticism. I would ask you to try it, though, and see how it suits you. At least for me, this works better than the big loop and shoulder turn. I am not very knowledgeable about body kinetics, but what I suspect is happening is that the compact, "forward emphasis" makes the contact very clean and well timed, and the involvement of the body compensates for the lack of a loop and big shoulder turn. I will leave it to WBC to fill in on why this works so well.

[chuck62]

A great forehand

WBC, Do your theories account for the fact that Elena's forehand has been one of the most dominant strokes in women's tennis for the last decade ? She was the only player other than Justine that could hang with the Williams sisters at their best. Her forehand has the perfect blend of the through and up. She produced a shot off both wings that got through the court quickly and was hard to track down, but had enough top to stay in. When she was on she was very hard to beat, even with a second rate serve. You don't acheive those kind of results without having great technique.

[worldsbestcoach]

williams' sisters

Tennisplayer -- thank you for the link. No, that coach does not provide good enough instruction, and he contradicts himself. He says some decent stuff, however. (1) He would probably hit his forehand better if he used a semi-western grip rather than an eastern with his fingers spread. He needs to get his hand more behind the racket, just like the dominant hand in a baseball swing. (2) He teaches a crazy mix of Oscar Wegner's forehand, and the modern forehands used by Berdich, Federer, etc. You will notice he says find the ball, yet his immediate reaction is to take turn his shoulders and take the racket back just as Berdich does. (3) He says keep an open stance, yet he gets so sideways with his shoulders so that a true open stance is difficult.

Yes, the instructor says some decent stuff, but also some bad stuff. It is a jumble. Many of the forehands that he hits go down into the net. He is doing some things wrong. Of course, most of the pros on the WTA and ATP are a jumble between what works and what they were incoorectly taught. That is why good pro forehands are difficult to find.

Sorry that we disagree about how "great" Dementieva's forehand was. The ATP & WTA tours are inundated with inconsistent, wild forehands. By the way, both Williams sisters are famous for having their forehands go off, frequently, during matches. The Williams need better coaching, also. My heart goes out to Elena, Venus, and Serena.

[tennisplayer]

Hi WBC, that was the closest I could find. I have a mental image of what you mean, so thanks for getting me thinking on that track. I look forward to a more precise definition when you get a chance to describe or illustrate it.