Interactive Forum March 2011: Elena Dementieva: Backhand

[johnyandell]

Of all the two-handed backhands we've filmed in high speed--both men and women--Elena Dementieva had perhaps the most unique hitting arm structure. Watch how she makes contact with both arms slightly flexed, but not bent, and not straight. (For more on the hitting arm structures, Click Here).

The rest of her technique is gorgeous. Great turn, explosive movement, great set up with a lot of leg loading, smooth, fluid swings, great extension. See what you think and share your thoughts about that hitting arm structure. What does it mean if anything? Forget about the serve--other than that I'm sorry to see her go!

Elena Dementieva: Backhand

[johnyandell]

Quicktime versions

Elena Dementieva: Backhand

[makhan67]

Elena Dementieva's Backhand!

Yes, I agree with you, her ground strokes were one of the best in the game if not the best, and her movement, as she has the most beautiful legs in women tennis. Her serve was ugly because she did not know how to toss the ball. I think something was wrong with her serving muscles. It is also a fact that at times girls do not understand a simple thing with regard to ball toss! I have my own experiences working with girls one of them my own daughter Pakistan No. 1 tennis player, Sarah Mahboob.

I think the most unusual thing about Elena's BH was the space between her right and left grip. She used to place her grips apart and you can see the gap inbetween the two grips.

As usual excellent work by John. Keep it up. Let the tennis community mature up and they will appreciate your work more.

Mahboob Khan

[worldsbestcoach]

too many mistakes by Elena . .& she blows backhand with follow through

I have seen Elena is person . .and of course also on TV countless times. She could not win a Slam title, even with today's weak competition, because she had a tendency to make mistakes too readily. For instance, in her topsin backhand shown here, Elena (as do many players) often jerks her racket so fast over her shoulder for the finish with tremendous racket head speed . . .that she cannot place her strings exactly where they should be on the ball (thus, she does not have great control over the amount & type of spin she imparts on the ball) . . .and she "finishes" without hitting through the ball and without really extending on the follow through. She is similar to a golfer who finishes, but who does not follow through. Therefore, she has a tendency for the ball to go low into the net . .or a tendency for her ball to go far from where she is aiming. The bottom line is that Elena, like many players, does not respect contact point enough.

[10splayer]

I have seen Elena is person . .and of course also on TV countless times. She could not win a Slam title, even with today's weak competition, because she had a tendency to make mistakes too readily. For instance, in her topsin backhand shown here, Elena (as do many players) often jerks her racket so fast over her shoulder for the finish with tremendous racket head speed . . .that she cannot place her strings exactly where they should be on the ball (thus, she does not have great control over the amount & type of spin she imparts on the ball) . . .and she "finishes" without hitting through the ball and without really extending on the follow through. She is similar to a golfer who finishes, but who does not follow through. Therefore, she has a tendency for the ball to go low into the net . .or a tendency for her ball to go far from where she is aiming. The bottom line is that Elena, like many players, does not respect contact point enough.

Ahh, what's your idea of extension? Like any good player, Elena could extend (like on the video) or break off the swing in a multitude of ways. Bottom line, she could do just about anything she wanted to with the ball off the ground. She has always been considered a great striker. (at least by the coaches and players IN the game) The fact that she started so many service points scrambling, (when she didn't double fault) is a testimony to her ground stroke prowess.

[johnyandell]

Elena actually extends as well as anyone in the game and you can see this going frame by frame in the video footage. Part of this may have to do with her straighter hitting arm structure. That was one thing I was hinting at in the first post I made going with the footage. Any high velocity swing needs to wrap either over the shoulder or around the body in order to decelerate the racket without causing injury.

[johnyandell]

I would definitely agree that players who focus on making the wrap happen shorten their extension. I wrote an article about called Myth of the Wrap.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/the_myth/the_myth_of_the_wrap_images/the_myth_of_the_wrap.html

But look at Tilden and Gonzalez in the archive and you'll see that the wrap has always been part of the history of the game. If you extend you have to wrap in fact to decelerate. So it may be something many players just do naturally but often they need to focus to extend.

[0403]

I think she could have better wrist pronation... just my first thought when i saw it in Slow-mo

[worldsbestcoach]

mistakes by elena

I agree with poster don budge. I see so many players on the WTA & ATP tours who make so many miserable mistakes with their emphasis on finishing the stroke with elbows high and racket over the shoulder. Racket head speed does not matter much if you cannot hit the ball in the center of the racket. Racket head speed does not matter much if you cannot place the strings on the ball properly. Racket head speed does not matter much if the ball goes into the bottom of the net, as it often does for players who have rotely and unquestioningly learned to always finish over their shoulders. They do not have good control over their shots. It is like a golfer who finishes, but does not really follow through.

Elena Dementieva probably had better groundstrokes than most WTA players, but that is not saying much. She could not really hang in a long point without making a mistake. You knew Elena's error would be coming. I think she had a good heart, and tried to fight well on court . . .but she was probably misled by coaches. The state of tennis coaching is changing, but it still is at an embarrassingly low level.

I saw that she got poor instruction from Harold Solomon, on "Tennis Academy" on the Tennis Channel. If only Elena was as consistent as Solly was during his playing days. Elena's preparation of the racket is poor, and her follow through (or finishing without following through) caused poor Elena countless errors. And Solly made his footwork guidelines so complicated. Solly should read Peter Burwash's chapter about the sometimes independence between lower body and upper body. Elena would have done well to practice her swings with her feet crossed -- she might have learned how to handle the racket better.

Elena should have read some guidelines from Oscar Wegner about tracking the ball, also. The way Elena prepared her racket, she was asking to make many mistakes. Elena had good heart & fighting spirit. With better guidance, she could have been so much better.

[10splayer]

Let me get this straight. Now your position is, that touring pro's dont center the ball well enough? Or are accurate and consistent? Well,this is just silly. And btw, Oscar proposes that players "break off the ball" sooner than most of us advocate. For the most part, he argues AGAINST extension. Citing his teaching method as an example, runs counter to your argument. You think Fed would benefit from find it, feel it, finish it? Okay.......

[johnyandell]

WBC,

Who do you think finishes according to your concept? Anyone in the stroke archive?

John Yandell

[rstrecker]

did anyone notice her grip?

In terms of arm structure, Elena seems close to Chris Evert, with both arms slightly bent, as shown in John's earlier study. It also seems that she varies the degree of bend in different shots.

I was struck by her grip. You can see dramatic changes in each sequence as she recognizes the shot is a backhand. Her right hand shifts to an Eastern backhand grip while the left hand moves to what looks to me like a Western grip.

Overall, a great and versatile backhand, beautifully struck from an open or closed stance with tremendously effective use of legs, hips, and shoulders.

[johnyandell]

I still watch that video myself. Watch Mac's shoulder turns. Fabulous.

[worldsbestcoach]

more on elena

Much/most of what Oscar Wegner says, I disagree with. But he irritatingly says one thing over & over again that is right -- the importance of tracking the ball with the strings of the racket. You will notice how well Elena Dementieva tracks the ball well with the strings of her racket, on her backhand. (See the video in this thread.) That is one of the main reasons that Elena's backhand is better & more consistent than her topspin forehand is. By tracking the ball so well on her backhand, she sets her swing forward . . . unlike her forehand, which has a backwards emphasis.

But Elena, with her backhand, still mishits the ball too often, & makes too many mistakes, for my taste. She blows many of her backhand strokes with her follow through, or lack of follow through. (Yes, I disagree with Oscar Wegner's ideas about the follow through.) Elena & many others on the pro circuits have pretty good 2-fisted backhands . .but they blow their strokes sometimes by the way they finish.

As I said above, Elena & many other pros often do not really follow through well. Instead, they jerk their rackets over their shoulders so fast that they do not know where their strings are facing. The ball often goes into the bottom of the net, or way wide . . . ..or if they do not catch their strings properly on the ball & hit too flat, then their shots go well long. Often, they try to prematurely finish over their shoulders so quickly, with elbows high, as they have been taught, that they close off the racket face and do not give the strings a chance to hit the ball cleanly. Often, it results in an embarassing mishit. The players do not really know what strings are hitting the ball, and do not know what the action of the strings is on the ball.

Golf does a much better job of teaching many of these details than does tennis does. Of course, it is easier to notice mistakes in golf. In tennis, often the world's best players do not hit the ball close to where they are aiming. Their shots land halfway between net and service line, but players, experts, & spectators do not notice. (I think Jimmy Connors would do something to those high-bouncing, short balls.) All the time, even with today's greatest players, I see them aiming cross-court, but they hit right up the middle of the court. If PGA golfers were as inaccurate, the golfers would notice. But in tennis, if the player wins the point, or the majority of points, the player often will not realize his flaws.

Therefore, golfers more easily can know when they need to improve. Also, in golf, it is apparent that sometimes technique needs to be improved, whereas in tennis, "experts" are too quick to opine whether a player is gifted or has good hands, or not. In golf, the first reaction to a mediocre player is that the player needs to learn & practice new information, new concepts, new technique. In tennis, the first reaction is that the player is just not a good athlete.

I like Elena. But did anyone recently watch the 2007 Kremlin Cup final that was on the Tennis Channel (replayed recently)? Both Elena & Serena Williams were making so many mistakes, early in the point, that long rallies were practically non-existent. All I am saying is that instead of listening & believing today's hyperbole about how great tennis & tennis coaching are now, we should instead realize that the field needs to raise its level.

[worldsbestcoach]

mac & lendl

mcenroe & lendl did not finish over their shoulder wildly, with elbows high, the way dementieva does.