It's not just shoulder over shoulder, it's hip over hip.

[GeoffWilliams]

http://www.fawcette.net/2011/02/milos-raonics-serve-close-up-in-video.html

Look at the 143mph flat ace at 2:08 in this video on Jim's blog. Milos Raonic (Meelos Rayoneetch) has said, "I modeled my serve after Sampras." In this flat ace, he deweights, he J tosses, he scrunches up his lower rear back, and the toss arm extends ala Sampras, the same chong stance, and then he has the same hip over hip action Sampras had, with the leading hip forced up higher than the rear hip (caused by the archers bow), and then there is the Sampras little dipsy doodle action, as the hips attain their biggest angle in a little dip just before leg drive up, and then they rotate and exchange positions, just as the shoulders do. All power shots originate in the core, and the hips rotate the core: open stance fh, power driven bh, all use the same hip rotation, just as the top servers rotate their hips the most.

So it's a good lesson for us all out there in hacker land, if you have never thought about your hips in your serve, it's time. Kicking your leg backwards, causes the hip rotation to exaggerate.

Many players have a hard time understanding the relationship between the leg drive upwards, as the arm/racquet are going in an opposite direction downwards. It's very counter-intuitive. But it goes a long way in loading the shoulder and finding adequate whip in the back swing. Fed also delays his drop until after the leg drive occurs, as did Sampras, and Becker as well, to attain the whip action on the arm. As you can see in this oh view of Sampras, the last frame shows he is not even at full vertical, with leg drive occurring, and the frame is delayed in its drop down, and his leading hip is far higher than his rear hip.

sampras serve oh

[gzhpcu]

Yes, the hips initiate the shoulder over shoulder cartwheel.

[10splayer]

Always have to go back to Gordon on these things. One of his major tenents on the serve, is that the center of mass must be moved forward, before the leg drive kicks in. When this occurs, the rear leg/hip will elevate/leave the ground first. It incurs less resistance, as a result of it's greater distance from the center of mass.(than the front leg)

This goes along way in facilitating the cartwheeling effect.

[GeoffWilliams]

Interesting comment. Hmm.

[jperedo]

yes hip over hip is what bruce elliot seems to be the main thing bruce elliott talks about in some his itf videos.

[bottle]

Some of these posts make me think that tennis can maybe become the model for American education.

[10splayer]

Some of these posts make me think that tennis can maybe become the model for American education.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[bottle]

What Can Tennis Teach American Education?

Exactly, 10splayer? Why exactly? What are you, a control freak? Confronted by so much demand, some people would say nothing. I know because I've been a reporter, which is all about how to turn on a faucet.

But I was especially impressed by the first post in this thread, the one by geoffwilliams. What's the price of it as an individual tennis lesson? $200? Two years of subscription at TennisPlayer.

It's got words, pictures, allusion to the real world and isn't lazy. At the same time it isn't overly formal and therefore off-putting.

It would take a good student for him or her to march with this lesson, but that's a comment on the teacher's high expectation.

Williams knows his audience and believes they can come up to him.

Do I need to say more? Professors of education ruminate about these subjects every day. They also become very abstract and general and dryly methodical which again, off-puts.

I admire the quality of other comments in this thread as I said, too, but didn't detect any appreciation of the real work that went into Williams' first post. This wouldn't have to be explicit, like this letter, but could be something as simple as best tone. Good manners do matter all the time in these exchanges and others in forums across the internet.

Anyway, one of the many banes of American education is that it's too abstract and doesn't get down to the ground, namely to the individual student's senses.

Tennis has some basic features built into it to counter this trend. First off, it concerns the dominant arm. Working from Whitman, fingertips are extension of brain or perhaps heart and therefore can make feelings and thought more real than pictures or talk.

[GeoffWilliams]

Exactly, 10splayer? Why exactly? What are you, a control freak? Confronted by so much demand, some people would say nothing. I know because I've been a reporter, which is all about how to turn on a faucet.

But I was especially impressed by the first post in this thread, the one by geoffwilliams. What's the price of it as an individual tennis lesson? $200? Two years of subscription at TennisPlayer.

It's got words, pictures, allusion to the real world and isn't lazy. At the same time it isn't overly formal and therefore off-putting.

It would take a good student for him or her to march with this lesson, but that's a comment on the teacher's high expectation.

Williams knows his audience and believes they can come up to him.

Do I need to say more? Professors of education ruminate about these subjects every day. They also become very abstract and general and dryly methodical which again, off-puts.

I admire the quality of other comments in this thread as I said, too, but didn't detect any appreciation of the real work that went into Williams' first post. This wouldn't have to be explicit, like this letter, but could be something as simple as best tone. Good manners do matter all the time in these exchanges and others in forums across the internet.

Anyway, one of the many banes of American education is that it's too abstract and doesn't get down to the ground, namely to the individual student's senses.

Tennis has some basic features built into it to counter this trend. First off, it concerns the dominant arm. Working from Whitman, fingertips are extension of brain or perhaps heart and therefore can make feelings and thought more real than pictures or talk.

Thanks so much bottle. Means a lot coming from you, with all your experience! It is exactly guys like you I was writing the thread for! I would like to write an article, comparing and contrasting: Becker:Sampras:Federer:Raonic's service motions, and the differences, that most of us hackers have, that prevent us from serving well! Maybe using video of myself as the hacker.

[tennis_chiro]

Great post

Geoff,
I agree with Bottle. It is a great post. Over the years, I've heard about how flexible Pete's shoulders were. Paul even had me practice with him a couple of times back in '95. But every time I look at this series of photos (and I had seen them before, perhaps posted by you in another thread), I realize mere mortals born on this planet should not be trying to serve like Pete; at least not without tremendous prehab and preventative muscle strengthening and flexibility increasing exercises! Ouch!

don

[10splayer]

Exactly, 10splayer? Why exactly? What are you, a control freak? Confronted by so much demand, some people would say nothing. I know because I've been a reporter, which is all about how to turn on a faucet.

But I was especially impressed by the first post in this thread, the one by geoffwilliams. What's the price of it as an individual tennis lesson? $200? Two years of subscription at TennisPlayer.

It's got words, pictures, allusion to the real world and isn't lazy. At the same time it isn't overly formal and therefore off-putting.

It would take a good student for him or her to march with this lesson, but that's a comment on the teacher's high expectation.

Williams knows his audience and believes they can come up to him.

Do I need to say more? Professors of education ruminate about these subjects every day. They also become very abstract and general and dryly methodical which again, off-puts.

I admire the quality of other comments in this thread as I said, too, but didn't detect any appreciation of the real work that went into Williams' first post. This wouldn't have to be explicit, like this letter, but could be something as simple as best tone. Good manners do matter all the time in these exchanges and others in forums across the internet.

Anyway, one of the many banes of American education is that it's too abstract and doesn't get down to the ground, namely to the individual student's senses.

Tennis has some basic features built into it to counter this trend. First off, it concerns the dominant arm. Working from Whitman, fingertips are extension of brain or perhaps heart and therefore can make feelings and thought more real than pictures or talk.

Wait a second. By no means was I disparaging Geoff's observation. The hip over hip movement is in large part a result of shifting the weight forward (in the windup) before the leg drive kicks in. I was seconding his opinion, and confirming his observations with what Brian has alluded to in his serve article.( i think)

As for the rest of your post, well, I'll choose not to respond.

[bottle]

No prob. Don't worry. I admire Brian, too, but think what Geoff brings to the table is very different. And I do think that tennis instruction needs these two opposite approaches-- both of them.

In retrospect, I'd like to thank you for asking the question you did. You can be a reporter, too, if you want, but you'll find that people call you up on the phone sometimes to cuss you out.

What you do in that case is take notes. There's always something you can use, maybe an idea or some "facts" or a new word.

[10splayer]

No prob. Don't worry. I admire Brian, too, but think what Geoff brings to the table is very different. And I do think that tennis instruction needs these two opposite approaches-- both of them.

In retrospect, I'd like to thank you for asking the question you did. You can be a reporter, too, if you want, but you'll find that people call you up on the phone sometimes to cuss you out.

What you do in that case is take notes. There's always something you can use, maybe an idea or some "facts" or a new word.

Cool Bottle.

[GeoffWilliams]

Part of the belief, is, that I can come up to it and gain a top serve.

When I see myself on video, it just does not match up to my expectation, of what I can eventually do. I believe I can attain not just a good serve, but a great one, if I put into practice, a more dynamic coil, and begin to leg drive, and yank down my toss arm/tuck the leading shoulder, and delay the drop, to create the cracking the whip serve I am currently lacking!

It would be interesting, to make a series of videos, and mark the progress, a comparison/contrast of reality, compared and contrasted to the hoped for reality. Sort of a separated analysis, as if I were looking at a student of the game, instead of just me.

[gzhpcu]

Part of the belief, is, that I can come up to it and gain a top serve.

When I see myself on video, it just does not match up to my expectation, of what I can eventually do. I believe I can attain not just a good serve, but a great one, if I put into practice, a more dynamic coil, and begin to leg drive, and yank down my toss arm/tuck the leading shoulder, and delay the drop, to create the cracking the whip serve I am currently lacking!

It would be interesting, to make a series of videos, and mark the progress, a comparison/contrast of reality, compared and contrasted to the hoped for reality. Sort of a separated analysis, as if I were looking at a student of the game, instead of just me.

As someone currently going through this process with the serve, I can tell you it is a rocky and stony path. Seems like everytime I think and am convinced I changed something, the moment I look on the video, I see that very little has changed. Not that I intend quitting though, just that it can be tough... but that's why we do it, right?